Whatever someone’s politics are, these caricatures are gross and way over the line. Criticism doesn’t need to lean on antisemitic imagery.
Is the antisemitism in the room with us right now?
OP is SO STUPID! NONE of these Cartoons showed someone PROTECTING Children from Bombs or PUSHING away Dogs that are RAPING Children! THOSE would be Anti Semetic!
-The BBC and Keir Starmer!
The rich are afraid of chad Polanski
No it’s check notes anyone who critiques a nation on genocide. At which point we will lump all members of their prominent religion into the same bucket because that’s equality.
Who is the “we” in there?
The one on the top left doesn’t even look like him.
I have no idea who this is so I looked him up, none of them look like him. He’s a totally normal looking guy? I’m American so I think he could use braces but I’m culturally obsessed with teeth, other than that he looks like any other white guy I’d see on the street… I always feel like going out of your way to focus on someone’s looks just makes you look weak, like if all you have is what the person looks like you’re really not saying anything of value
But are these anti-jewish depictions or are they caricatures? Pretty sure those anti-jewish depictions were caricatures in the first place so hmmm. Is there any proof that this isn’t a common way to depict politicians in the UK? Because it feels like typical caricatures.
I’ll start by saying I’m not Jewish or a expert in Jewish caricature history so grain of salt:
I’d say top left gets a pass. top right is literally the greedy merchant meme and it barely looks like him. even if it did look like him, you should still be careful not to invoke the Nazi depictions.
bottom right would normally have the highest benefit of the doubt, except Slimer has a very distinct large tongue and they couldn’t help but give him a forked tongue.
Bottom left doesn’t look like him at all. So it would get a pass but it feels like they focused so much on his nose that they forgot to make it resemble him. So that’s also suspect but eh, whatever.
Top right and bottom right are def antisemitic imo. they definitely knew what they were doing, and if you think there’s plausible deniability, that was part of the calculation.
top left: agree
top right: it’s a typical caricature
bottom left: extremified features are typical of caricatures
bottom right: snake tounge is a descriptor of politicians it means liar it doesn’t mean jewish.
Search up UK political caricatures these are really typical. It’s probably got a lot more to do with oldmate having stereotypical features and being a politician than anything else based on available information.
they definitely knew what they were doing, and if you think there’s plausible deniability, that was part of the calculation.
That is just plain false you are lying…
I disagree. This same argument can be made for a minstrel style depiction of obama. It is precisely their historic use that makes them problematic.
Can you frame it as a whole problem and not a “it’s okay for some groups of people but not okay for other groups of people” problem where you want to act like treating people different based on their race or religion is moral?
don’t be all lives mattering this shit
Are you stupid how is that even applicable?
it’s the fake equality concern. you’re arguing for equal treatment to groups that are not on equal ground to begin with. yeah some things are more ok for some people than it is for others because historical context exists. a black man can say cracker all day and all night and it wouldn’t be as bad as a white man saying the n word once. tough shit.
These things are not comparable. Comparing the n-word to “loud poor idiot” like they are equal is literally some of the most stupid shit I have ever heard. You have no idea what you are talking about. You can’t be infantizing people based on their race or religion that is genuinely wrong. I know you aren’t trying to be racists and anti-jewish, I know you are just stupid. Be bettter.
what the fuck are you even talking about. anti Jewish? loud poor idiot? what? is this an AI bot? you’re hallucinating.
What? Context exists. Historically, we’ve enslaved peoples, we’ve genocided peoples, and so on. And yes, sometimes yhis entails different treatment of those peoples to right those wrongs. Pretending otherwise is some white lives matter shit.
It is worse to say the n word than it is to say cracker, and I will die on that hill.
Exactly context exists. So why is it totally thrown out in your argument? Political satire is the prevailing context, political caricatures. By nature they are meant to be offensive.
It is worse to say the n word than it is to say cracker, and I will die on that hill.
That is false equivalence. Also comparing the n-word to ''loud poor idiot" is wild.
Making an offensive depiction of a black person is not racist. Making an offensive depiction of a jewish person is not anti-jewish. And as long as we are getting offended on behalf of entire groups, I am offended on behalf of all black and all jewish people because you think they are so tribally thin skinned that they need special protections against something the other ethnicity politicians hang on their walls.
Hey let me try one : So because movies had racist depictions of black people, no black people should be allowed in movies? Actually that isn’t such far off false equivalence now is it? That is what you want for political satire.
E:Look up street caricature artists some funny shit out there dude lighten up fight an actual problem talk to an actual activist see where your efforts will be valued.
A reminder that israel is a project planned and launched largely by british christians to scapegoat jews for western exploitation and militarism against muslim states in the middle east. The west will pretend to support judaism only so long as the appearance can be abused as a means of domination.
For my fellow americans in the room, consider how the timing of the rise of evangelicalism - A christian doomsday sect obsessed with jewish control of palestine - As a state religion here in all but name only, coincides roughly with the US taking up the baton from the british as top paypig for israel, coincides roughly with our current acceptance of european-descended jews into white privilege.
Is the fear of being labeled antisemite that strong? Yes Christians Zionists has big influence but the people and group to directly ethnically cleansing Palestinian during the nekba was not Christians . Ben Gurion, the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi was not Christians. Zionist are jewish and Christian supermasist similar to ISIS are Islamic supremacists .
The Israeli group B’Tselem also refer to the israeli regime as Jewish supremacy
That there are a shitload of zionist jews out there who support the israel project is I’d say a basic fact that goes without saying. Highlighting how these racist cartoons slot right into the hypocritical history of that project is not an apologetic mea culpa toward them, it’s actually the sort of ideas that would get me labeled antisemitic by both them or your average hasbarist.
I’m actually a bit surprised how unpopular my above comment seems to be, is the british public not educated about the history of the balfour declaration? Or are they still so uncomfortable confronting how their own racisms and biases are a significant facet in fueling that project that, even in an antizionist space discussing racist charicatures of an antizionist, they prefer to assume that examinations of that facet are apology on behalf of zionist jews?
The Belfour declaration happened because of the Jewish Zionist and first president of Israel Chaim Weizmann to begin with. The British empire is complicit in the colonization but those who did the ethnic cleansing was mostly Jewish Zionists financed by other Jewish Zionists . And the be clear those Zionist jews do not represent jews and Judaism as a while. I really doubt that the colonization project would have been stopped if the Belfour declaration did not happen
Correct and Balfour, the man who penned the document, was a conservative christian. And the declaration was ratified and backed by the almost entirely christian parliament. That jews are predominantly responsible for being the dogs who carry out western atrocities in israel is a given. That’s a basic fact. Why can’t you acknowledge the christian colonialist component of zionism without falling back on making that basic fact the centerpiece of your reply? It’s really weird. I’m not asking you personally yo take responsibility for this. I’m just asking us all to acknowledge that this is no longer really a “jewish” project. It’s racist nation state domination with a jewish skin.
Why can’t you acknowledge the christian colonialist component of zionism
But I do.
That jews are predominantly responsible for being the dogs who carry out western atrocities in israel is a given.
The zionist jews and zionist christians had alluance based on having a common target. There is no master/dog relstion here
this is no longer really a “jewish” project
It was always a colonial project backed by other colonial powers and different interests. No wonder those imperialist power quickly recognized an illigitimate state
Sorry, I think I was arguing a bit past you earlier, on closer examination I think we’re mostly on the same page. I’m just used to being surprised by the difference in reactions to self-criticism between US and UK commenters so I was probably a bit too on guard! Your clarifications here make it all make sense.
Is he in any way related to Roman?
They are accusing the UK govt of both being too strongly sensitive against anti-semitism (banning protests), and unapolagetically anti-semitic (allowing these depictions).
What is the point of this post?
They are accusing the UK govt of both being too strongly sensitive against anti-semitism (banning protests), and unapolagetically anti-semitic (allowing these depictions).
What is the point of this post?
It’s to point out the hypocrisy. This is actual antisemitism, which is apparently being tolerated, compared to the protests which aren’t antisemitism but shut down anyway.
Accusing Palestine protestors of anti-semitism is also actual anti-semitism. The accusation implies that all Jewish people are genocidal, not just Israel.
The point is to add another example to the mountain of evidence that Zionists don’t give a damn about actual antisemitism, just so long as you don’t say that Palestinians should have rights. The hypocrisy shows that banning protests had nothing to do with being sensitive about antisemitism and everything to do with shutting down criticism of the “state” of Israel.
How are protests to stop killing people antisemitic?
By conflating anti-zionism with anti-semitism, the government runs cover for Israel and its genocidal war crimes. But at the same time, it and the media have no problem with the historic anti-semitism of depicting Jews as goblins with hooked noses and being the root of evil in the world, as long as they are the ones doing it.
Brigaded by hamas supporting far-left extremists. It’s out of their playbook.
Look how many upvotes and comments other posts have in this community.
Or maybe you’re just wrong?
No, it must be everyone else who is wrong. narcissist.
I’m right. This is the most upvoted post in this community in the last 12 months.
Not anything inherently about politics, but a cartoon that is a caricature of a person. Because he’s far left, the Lemmy echo chamber flocks to it with their support.
“Not anything inherently about politics”
It’s political cartoons of a political party leader
Most upvoted and commented post in this community ever. It’s not even news.
Can’t you agree it’s brigaded tae fuck?
I lack reference. I see caricatures. How do they differ to be specifically antisemitic? Is there a specific detail that makes them that?
Yes, it’s extremely obvious and disgusting, especially the top two: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Merchant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watto
Hmmmmmmm
The forked tongue in the fourth one too…
Anyone who claims these are anti-semitic is obviously caricaturophobic, and possibly a cartoonophobe in addition.
I’ve seen cartoons of King Charles that put these to shame. The more grotesque, the better, in my book… one of my favorite such artists is Ralph Steadman.
Anyway, this is another example of constant bullshit artists have to put up with, they are often treated with contempt. I’m glad at least a few papers are still employing cartoonists, soon it will all be gone and we’ll be left with USA-Weekly-style generic trash.
Are you a Nazi or just clueless? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Merchant
When the caricature doesn’t look at all like the person and is instead merely a well known historical antisemitic caricature applied to them (Happy Merchant), I will have to staunchly disagree.
It’s just a cartoon. Why is it antiseptic?
Drawn in chlorhexidine
Removed by mod
Side view for more comparison:
Top right: clearest case IMO. nose clearly bears no resemblance to his actual nose, whereas large hooked noses are the most common physical anti-semitic stereotype.
Top left: huge lips is another classic Nazi stereotype. Big ears arguably also, but he does have pretty big ears. The drooping eyes are a more subtle stereotype, but given that his actual eyes are narrow, not drooping, that’s pretty suspicious IMO. Contrast top-right, which caricatures his real eyes.
Bottom left: fucking cursed, but I can’t see anything anti-semitic
Bottom right: unhinged, but again not anti-semitic that I can see. There have been some depictions of jews as snakes, hence having forked tongues, but they’re not super common that I can see so it’s a bit of a stretch.
for the bottom right: the tongue is not forked on the actual ghost, they added that intentionally
OK but saying a politician is a snake or devil of some kind isn’t unusual, so unless we can find some anti-semitic trope it’s based on, I don’t see it.
Ironically, the most common example I know if is Farage as depicted by Martin Rowson!
What the fuck does antiseptic even mean? Does it mean he is going to gas all Jews in the UK?
The four cartoon pics straight up look like they were drawn by A. Wyatt Mann.
Edit: THREE cartoons and a PHOTO MANIPULATION, thank you for correcting fuckin pedant, feels like I’m back on Reddit thanks
Given that the bottom left is not even a cartoon but a photomanipulation I don’t think you’ve looked at them carefully enough that anyone should take your word for it.
You’re right looking at pictures requires an extensive investigative study it can’t be just done at a glance.
No, extensive is not necessary, obviously. But it looks like a glance is not sufficient.
If you disagree you can say what’s wrong with the others. It’s a lot more productive than just talking vaguely.
I was saying they all look racist but you come in hostile so how bout you productively fuck off. Sorry my shitpost comment I made while I was on a walk about how some images are racist and look like a racist guy’s comics didn’t meet your exhaustive observational standards. I sure will sit down and REALLY study a post’s images and my comment before make any more posting lest I offend your delicate sensibilities more.
Or most likely I’ll glance at your poop brown tag you’ve earned now and extensively think “lul that guy’s a full on dingus from reddit”
I was saying they all look racist
But are still not saying how.
Or most likely
Oh no, however will I cope? The approval of people who add nothing to discussions was all that was keeping me going :'(
Do you even know who A. Wyatt Man is? It’s an internet comment not a fucking research paper. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, stay ignorant, I’m not here to hold the hand of some fired up toxic asshole. If someone asked half-respectfully, I could elaborate.
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Thank you, herr FishFace.
Other images make the nose appear more hooked
And if you have a lick of sense and any kind of historical awareness, this fact won’t make you exactly reproduce overt Nazi caricatures.
It’s alarming to me how many people here have no fucking clue how clear-cut antisemitic the top right one is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Merchant
as a jew it’s actually shocking to read the top level comments on this post. practically every one is either dismissing it or subtly anti-semitic. i think i might actually hate it here on lemmy
Further down you can at least see that one person actually learned and concluded that they’ve ostensibly been too sheltered to learn about this until now.
Ok, young people exist, but so many of them just loudly proclaiming they see nothing wrong is just alarming, no matter if they’re just clueless or Nazis rubbing their hands like their favorite caricature.
Yeah, someone pointed it out to me. I kind of see it now
But surely anyone’s nose will appear more hooked when widely grinning like that because it’ll slightly raise the points where your nose attaches to your face.
True
Get those calipers out lad
What the actual fuck. Nevermind the antisemitism for a second, why are they even bashing politicians based on appearance in the first place? British media is unhinged.
Meanwhile Orange Man:
That guy is hideous through and through
So it’s ok to mock someone based on appearance as long as they’re not jew
Just always been like that, spitting image was an institution.
What’s wrong with it? Caricatured politicians practically every day for centuries since we’ve had a press, this is bad now?
Historical context. Nazis have been using this particular Jewish stereotype for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Merchant
You’re not allowed to criticize anyone Jewish without a shitload of idiots coming out to pretend you’re a Nazi for it.
Criticize away, just don’t use blatantly racist caricatures in doing so.
It’s a standard thing they do to anybody vaguely left wing.
If your election promise isn’t to go visit all the billionaire media owners and personally suck them off, you’re not going anywhere in the UK.
Like Margaret Thatcher! That old commie
But Zionists only cry when you make fun of a jew
Yeah if you published something like that in Sweden you’d get pitchforks shoved up your ass.
Right. I don’t know how indicative of the climate in the uk this is, but with this and the comments, I’m freaking out a little bit rn.
Comments are all like “this is a proud British tradition and I don’t see anything wrong with it, plus fuck all politicians let’s bully every single one of them so only the worst narcissists survive.”
I’m amazed their officers haven’t been fire bombed yet. If their hacker journalists had an ounce of talent they would be humiliated working there.
It’s called caricature, and it’s been a central part of British political cartoons since the 18th Century. Politicians have been known to buy the originals to hang on their walls.
There have also been caricatures of Jews that were clearly antisemitic in intent, like some of the ones of Polansky.
Especially the top right one depicted here is just extremely blatantly antisemitic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Merchant
We also have political caricatures. They look like this.
@mirshafie @insubstantialpageant they really don’t want the Greens to have any influence at all!
Well yeah they’re trying to implement policies which will ensure to continue existence of the species beyond the next generation. What an awful prospect.
Politicians are horrible twats. No idea what the ratio is, or how it could be proven, but I would imagine that the amount of “good” politicians is a very very low number. I mean politicians that actually have the best interests of the public at heart, or in mind, when they’re making decisions. The idea of voting for people to make decisions for me is nuts. Any outrage about a caricature is crazy.
If you don’t know what the conversation is about you don’t have to contribute. It’s not a requirement you know.
I have my criticisms of the greens but not with him in particular
I am fully aware of what the conversation is about.
Let me break it down for you.
Caricatures are drawn of a politician.
Somebody claims that because said politician is Jewish and has a big nose in the caricatures that they are antisemitic.
Likens the caricatures to pro-Palestine marches when they are, and should be, independent of one another.
I would suggest that Keir Starmers connections to Israel, and influence by the Jewish people close to him, may lay closer to the reason that his government have cracked down so hard on the Pro-Palestine movements.
They are a total contradiction in themselves, which has been proven time and time again. Which is something I get is being attempted with this/these examples.
But they are not like for like. Nowhere in the cartoons is the politician calling for death to Palestinians or even pro-Israel (so cannot be accused of being antisemitic) under Starmers laws.
But equally if the politician was calling for that, he likely wouldn’t be accused of it either under Starmers Britain.
Starmers Britain is one where the “only” antisemitic people can be those that will use satire, humour or criticism of the Jewish people, but not necessarily Semite people. That includes calling out Genocide or just publicly supporting aid for the people being slaughtered.
One example is in this video - A Jewish community crowd around a news crew, telling a Semite journalist that he should “go home” and that he is not welcome on their streets, calling him a Donkey and a Dog. Nothing happened to any of them.
The law is very lob sided on this ‘law’ under Starmer. His version of antisemitism that he “will not tolerate in any form” is only really in favour of some Semite people, but definitely not all, and not only does he tolerate it, he often ignores it, in many of its forms.
It seems Jewish people cannot be antisemitic, but other Semite people can be.
