I would be curious to see the numbers but I don’t think the pro Palestine protest voters cost the Democrats the election. It definitely didn’t help, but the Dems shat the bed in way more ways than just the Palestine situation.
I question even that: Did they really? Where did the party articulate a cohesive plan (or hell, even just an enthusiastic promise) to counter the rise of oligarchy?
They promised an escape from him stylistically, but the majority of citizens who aren’t political junkies weren’t sick of it, because they weren’t exposed to it, because they don’t pay much attention to political news. What did they promise that the non-informed voter would notice in they’re day-to-day life?
Unfortunately “We aren’t Donald Trump” wasn’t a winning strategy two of the three times they tried it.
I wonder what two terrible choices we are gonna have in 2028. Watch it be like fuckin Nancy Pelosi with an exoskeleton holding her up vs Dan Crenshaw who will have replaced his eye patch with a gun by then.
And, remember, it almost didn’t even work the second time. Biden was the only candidate running for the nomination poised to lose to Trump and he was forced on us, seemingly as punishment for us demanding healthcare. They were willing to throw 2020 and would have lost had the unpredictable and extraordinary circumstances of Covid-19 not occurred, along with Trump’s absolutely bungled response. Covid-19 was the sole event that propelled Biden to the white house. And then he was exactly as ineffective and terrible as all leftists predicted and we got Trump back because of it.
I think both Trump and Biden handled COVID fucking terribly.
Really most nations handled it really fucking badly. I can forgive initial mistakes like not knowing how potent it was or how infectious it was, but once they knew the masks were pointless why the hell did they continue to push that crap everywhere.
It’s absolutely a disgrace how the Dems handled it after an entire year of Trump trying to pretend it just didn’t exist or was just a cold and using that in their campaign. Then when it became convenient for them they began to pretend it was over.
Well, whoever it is, it’ll be them running against Trump, because he’s already hinted at running for a third term, and he doesn’t give a shit if things he does are illegal. And again, whoever it is the Dems pick, they’ll be such shitheads that they’ll lose the election against Trump again, for the third time. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever they learn their lesson in the next four years, because democrats are mentally incapable of even considering they could ever do anything wrong.
I was saying that the left says he’s a liar 24/7 but for whatever reason chose to believe him completely when he made that comment. But then they just go right back to calling him a liar when he made clarifications afterwards.
It’s not that complex if you have a handful of functioning brain cells my guy.
Inside our current system, the most powerful act a citizen can perform is voting.
That “inside” is doing increasingly heavy lifting these days. Seems to me that increasingly the only successful change comes from working outside the system.
See, this is where communication always breaks down…
If a progressive is politically active right now it’s safe to assume that they held their nose and voted D.
Which I’ve done just like I’ve always done.
But we tried to warn people trump was going to win if Dems kept moving right…
Dems kept moving right, and we were right. Then when we try to talk about how to win next time and how to gain back all the votes moving right cost us…
We get people trying to say we’re the problem because we want to fucking win.
So, not voting and encouraging others not to vote because “blue MAGA” is actively helping the people who are currently enacting genocide+.
I got a big post history, plenty of opportunities for you to find a single comment where I’ve ever advocated for not voting for the least evil candidate in the general.
But if you got a little faith you can take my word it’s not in here.
Yes, it is possible to be extremely ignorant of the effectiveness of various political actions.
Whether you are for or against voting, claiming it’s the most powerful act a citizen can perform is completely absurd. I don’t know a single informed person of any ideology who thinks this.
Maybe I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. The way I understand it, it’s very misleading or incorrect. There are plenty of actions people can take that are far more impactful than voting. I guess whether those various actions are categorized as inside or outside of the system might be up for debate in some cases. But I’m not sure why you would even be imposing that restriction in the first place.
The reason I said, “inside the system” is that we need to use the avenues provided to us to try to fight back along side other means, such as protests. We need to unify now more than ever, so lumping everyone who uses the system to affect change into “blue MAGA” is only harming progress.
I agree completely with the need to unify. I just want people to stop thinking politics begins and ends with voting. Even if you don’t want to do anything disruptive there are still things you can do like canvassing or letter-writing or becoming local party delegate and influencing parties from the inside. I largely agree with leftists that the system will never be completely transformed from the inside but it’s better than doing nothing.
However I also think we’re getting to the point where more disruptive civil resistance actions will be necessary.
Pro-Palestine protest votes didn’t cost the Dems the election, but that a single group was not the deciding factor in a contest does not absolve them of responsibility. IE single-issue pro-Israel voters probably were not the reason for Trump’s victory, but they still deserve a portion of the blame in voting for Trump.
And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.
Haha it’s people with flawed logic like you who deserve all the blame.
People who think like you should have to pass aptitude tests before they vote since they literally lined up behind an undemocratically appointed presidential candidate who had no concrete policy position except vibez and no fundamental changes from Biden.
People who couldn’t see an obvious and humiliating loss coming for Harris and the democrats since Biden was the candidate are the only people responsible for this disaster.
The democrats could have given you options. They didn’t because they don’t care about you. They paraded around a half-dead 80 year old man as competent and made excuses for his ineptitude while telling everyone who said he wasn’t fit that they were the ones who were actually crazy. Then they do a last minute bait and switch because he is literally falling apart before the world’s eyes. They lied to you over and over and you are still carrying water for them. Does the history of the situation not matter now that Trump is president?
That’s exactly why people are being called bluemaga.
Yes, of course, how could I not see that “no fundamental changes from Biden” was a horror worth electing a literal fascist. Thank you for informing me that worsening every issue facing us was the preferable choice in order to teach those darn Dems a lesson. Many of us filthy poors and minorities will suffer and die, but that’s a sacrifice you and your’s are willing to make, right?
Why are you hung up on the idea of teaching democrats a lesson? Democrats are not owed votes. They have to earn them. They did not earn them this time for a multitude of reasons, but you want to blame everyone else except them and their weak policies, weak campaigns, weak candidates, and shattered moral compass.
You can prefer the slow unnoticeable slip into fascism the democrats were offering instead of the highway to hell version republicans are unrolling, but please just be honest about it.
Biden did nothing to improve American’s every day lives. The cost of living keeps going up and all the democrats do is say, “hey, the parliamentarian that you have never heard of says we can’t do $15 minimum wage, but we can give ourselves raises and send billions to Ukraine for a proxy war and even more billions to Israel for a genocide. oh things are getting too expensive out there? slow down on the avocado toast. get a job as a coder. see our lives are fine, why are you all complaining.”
We were going to end up in the same place whether democrats or republicans won. It’s just more pleasing to you draped in blue instead of red. I thought maybe TDS democrats would finally start fighting for Palestine once Trump came into office, but they instead turned their derangement on the people who don’t want American to fund and safeguard a genocide. Crazy times we are witnessing.
And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.
The dimbass games are posts like this instead of arguing for civil disruption and actions beyond elections. The protesters entire point was the election won’t stop the genocide either way and further action is needed. Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that’s already fucking over serves nothing. Unless you don’t care about the issue in the first place and just want to be divisive about it.
The protesters entire point was the election won’t stop the genocide either way and further action is needed.
And in the interest of furthering that point, they did everything they could to ensure a Democratic defeat. After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it’s only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?
Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that’s already fucking over serves nothing.
I’m not trying to bait them into any sort of argument. They’re long past help. They’re out here on Lemmy already praising Trump as the ‘lesser evil’ and insisting, even now, that there’s no difference between Trump and Harris in terms of policy. Any argument with them is fucking pointless.
But I’m sorry that you don’t like that I’m not giving them asspats for their ‘principled’ stand against American minorities over an issue that, even according to your summary of their motivations, they realized would not be changed by their attacks on the non-fascist candidate in the election.
Yes, this is why the smartest choice for LGBT folk in 1939 Poland would have been to welcome the Nazis, what with Poland being, at the time, far from LGBT-friendly. Because if there’s not solidarity for everyone, there should be solidarity for no one.
/s, for all of those out there patting each other on the back over ensuring the fascist won the 2024 American presidential election.
Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was. Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It’s an expected outcome. I voted for Harris but you don’t see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.
Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice
Oh, of course, when you can’t achieve justice by voting, the correct decision is to ensure that voting results in the worst possible resolution. If you can’t have justice, you must have as much injustice as possible. The only moral choice, of course. Basic accelerationism. Every good revolutionary knows this.
you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was.
Like fucking what? The easy answer of “We’re going to rise up and firebomb the rich any day now :‘’')” has been parroted by leftist wannabe suburban kids since the 70s; fuck’s sake, I’ve heard the line myself for the past 20 fucking years. And what has happened? Where are these masses ready to rise up, since they find voting no longer radical enough for their tastes?
They aren’t exchanging voting for more effective forms of change. They’re just abandoning voting, and replacing it with jack fucking shit. They continue to sit on their fucking asses, like always. They don’t organize en masse, they don’t take up lone wolf violence. They do nothing, except play at purity games to jerk themselves off over how pure they are for abandoning as many minorities and oppressed groups as they can to literal fucking fascists. And you know who suffers for it?
All of us.
Fuck’s sake.
Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It’s an expected outcome.
Are you fucking kidding me? “Resistance is nonparticipation”?
What a fucking joke. Am I suppose to thank these twats for nonparticipating us into camps? Should I thank them for nonparticipating Ukraine into a potential genocide? What did nonparticipation gain us ‘revolutionary’ elements? Are we better poised to strike against the system now? No? We’re actually worse off? Fucking fantastic.
I voted for Harris but you don’t see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.
“This system needs to go” does not need the addendum “Therefore, I’m going to make the system as terrible as possible”.
You think I’m naive for telling you how things work? Believing that someone is going to remain participatory with a government that’s genuinely greenlighting genocide like the Dems were because the opposition will… greenlight genocide… is delusional. If that’s their primary moral issue, they are expected to not participate.
What’s naive is going through this shit since the 80s and actually expecting electoralisim alone to change things. Newsflash, it hasn’t. The problems are more fundamental. Whining about someone else not putting work in is similarly unconvincing.
Except they didnt vote for trump and it’s disgusting to pretend otherwise
But they helped him become president. Do you understand that you can help someone become president even if you don’t vote for them? Is that a concept that you can grasp?
Bruh, I explicitly made the point of “Being a small part of the problem does not absolve people of being part of the problem”, and your response is
So we’re discussing a tiny portion of people now to avoid being called out for the authoritarian vote bullshit now, eh?
Between the fact that we were discussing a ‘tiny portion of people’ from the very start and that ‘authoritarian vote bullshit’ is a vague phrase that makes no solid assertions except “vote bad >:(” for some reason, you’ve said nothing of substance unless there’s some means of clarifying. I offered you a chance to clarify. You declined.
Don’t really know how much more help you want here. I’m not here to spoonfeed you, guy.
I think the 2024 election cycle failure falls almost exclusively on the shoulders of the Democrats.
Yeah Trump and his bullshit obviously played a part in where we ended up, but I genuinely believe that it more so came down to how the Democrats handled things in the years leading up to and during the election. I know people want to shift blame and point fingers. You could even make the argument that I’m doing that right now, but the data says otherwise.
It’s not like Trump is some generally beloved figure that was already super popular. No he’s highly controversial. Many old school Republicans and conservatives despise the guy.
So how does someone that nobody on the left likes and significant chunks on the right also aren’t a fan of end up in the office again?
At some point the democratic party need to actually reflect on where they went wrong instead of just pointing fingers and trying to shift blame.
At the end of the day it’s the job of the party to earn the votes of the people. They clearly didn’t earn enough votes.
Blue lost ground to red in every single state. That type of thing doesn’t just happen outta nowhere.
At the end of the day it’s the job of the party to earn the votes of the people. They clearly didn’t earn enough votes.
But what does that mean when you’re up against a party entirely comfortable with outright lying, who are willing to peddle the most extreme, absurd propaganda to a nation of dunces that actually eat it up?
Does that mean Democrats should become what we hate and just start lying and peddling the craziest propaganda possible like the Republicans?
I don’t see the Dem’s campaign as being the issue. The issues are that Americans are dumb as fuck and that we have ALWAYS held Democrats to higher standards. So even if they run a cleaner campaign and have a voting history proving they are better for the middle/lower classes, we still DEMAND more of them, or else we’re going to just go with our abusers instead.
Americans are fucking dumb. That’s not really the Dem’s fault. Especially since they support our public education system WAY more than Republicans do, who want to privatize it.
I acknowledge that the Dems MUST change. That’s super true.
But based on real historical information about trump, plus his clear intentions for this term, I would have elected an incontinent Chihuahua over trump. At least the Chihuahua would have just shit on the floor of the oval office rather than trashing minority/immigrant rights, climate/science progress, and health research and vaccine implementation all in the first week.
So if there’s criticism of dems, which is valid, there’s a seeming lack of acknowledgement of the risks trump poses, which are in great excess to anything DEM status quo
So if there’s criticism of dems, which is valid, there’s a seeming lack of acknowledgement of the risks trump poses
Dems have ALWAYS been held to a higher standard. They have to be flawless, while Republicans literally get to be lawless.
It’s absurd and is a damning condemnation of the intelligence of the average American. If Dems don’t do exactly as we want with halos over their heads, we just throw our hands up in the air and go with our direct abusers instead. It’s pathetic. It’s so childish.
It’s like the al franken thing. What he did in that joking photo was 100% wrong. But was it requiring he be expelled? Further, an active, effective blue legislator was lost for something conservatives would never have done. In some cases that’s a damn good thing.
So, on the one hand, punishment and criticism was required, but the standard is so sky high that dems just lose to republicans.
Please be clear, I’m not condoning his behavior or suggesting nothing should have happened, but I think the action shouldn’t have been running him out of town without question.
True. People keep saying there was nothing different from the Harris campaign that made her different from Biden, but when you compare the status quo, even the version of the status quo that Biden’s biggest critics were inventing, it would have still been preferable to re-electing the guy who tried to literally steal the election last time. We could have only been so lucky to have the status quo.
The status quo is going to look so desirable. Even just by the end of this year. We’ll be begging for it. Just like we were at the end of 2020. But Americans have the memory span of hamsters. So here we are.
So if there’s criticism of dems, which is valid, there’s a seeming lack of acknowledgement of the risks trump poses, which are in great excess to anything DEM status quo
The inescapable conclusion is that, despite their rhetoric, the Democratic Party did not actually see Trump as a risk to the status quo – at least not the status quo they actually care about (their donors’ plutocratic gravy train), as opposed to the status quo they claim to care about (egalitarianism/civil rights).
In other words, “the Dems MUST change” is a huge understatement. It also has zero chance of happening – other than doubling down on the “we must court the mythological Enlightened Centrist and move right” change for the worse – under the current party leadership.
I think the 2024 election cycle failure falls almost exclusively on the shoulders of the Democrats.
You make some valid points, certainly. But what people are failing to recognize is none of that matters now.
We had one day, or one vote to stop this tidal wave of evil and we did not do it. Did the DNC fail to appear on a sports talk show, or drive a garbage truck around? Did they not mobilize a nationwide caucus to choose the best candidate from every single human alive today with just four months to go? Yeah, i guess, whatever - it doesn’t matter.
People who refused to stop trump because of Palestine helped ensure that situation would get 100x worse. And they were complete ignorant assholes about it. Dog forbid they learn anything from this.
Blame parties all you want. The American people failed at maintaining their democracy. It’s our fault as an electorate. Our shit government is a reflection of our shit electorate.
I’m getting real tired of the “they didn’t earn my vote” bullshit. How about those fools actually look up data over time regarding both parties and make an educated vote? Especially in this election, which was the most blatant election we’re ever likely to see. This was, in no way, a confusing election. The better option was so unbelievably obvious the English language almost lacks words to describe it.
That’s true but you can’t attribute exactly why, which was my point.
You can make some correlations about identifying key issues to a given group, but you can’t guarantee their absence wasn’t just due to either not being able to vote due to work or some other legitimate limitation on their ability, or just being a shitty lazy citizen, or protest absence
It wouldn’t have been a landslide, but it certainly assured the worst case scenario, MAGA sweeping all 3.
Who knows how it would have gone down otherwise, maybe the Democrats regained the house, maybe held onto the Senate. Maybe Trump would have lost, but Republicunts held onto Congress.
Who knows, but any of those would have been 10000x better than letting Drump get a hold of all 3.
A lot of the House Senate races are likely due to the “victory fund” nonsense Hillary started and was then passed down to Biden and Kamala
The way it gets away donation limits is using the max from state parties. The last time we got to see the books was after 2016, and states got like 1% of what was donated “for them” to the DNC and Clinton campaigns
There’s no sign anything has changed, and the neoliberals running the party have no requirements to disclose them
So I just assume if they’re hiding the books, they’re hiding grifts at this point.
If you think white people have problems because of brown people, you’re a stupid fuck. White people collect all the money that makes white people poor.
“It’s pretty cool that MAGA Elon has so much money and my life sucks.”
I would be curious to see the numbers but I don’t think the pro Palestine protest voters cost the Democrats the election. It definitely didn’t help, but the Dems shat the bed in way more ways than just the Palestine situation.
Pretty much. They didn’t offer anything their constituents wanted except for escape from DJT.
I question even that: Did they really? Where did the party articulate a cohesive plan (or hell, even just an enthusiastic promise) to counter the rise of oligarchy?
They promised an escape from him stylistically, but the majority of citizens who aren’t political junkies weren’t sick of it, because they weren’t exposed to it, because they don’t pay much attention to political news. What did they promise that the non-informed voter would notice in they’re day-to-day life?
They promised that their oligarchs would be nicer to us. Which, to be fair, is probably true.
You’d think that would’ve been enough…
ok
Unfortunately “We aren’t Donald Trump” wasn’t a winning strategy two of the three times they tried it.
I wonder what two terrible choices we are gonna have in 2028. Watch it be like fuckin Nancy Pelosi with an exoskeleton holding her up vs Dan Crenshaw who will have replaced his eye patch with a gun by then.
And, remember, it almost didn’t even work the second time. Biden was the only candidate running for the nomination poised to lose to Trump and he was forced on us, seemingly as punishment for us demanding healthcare. They were willing to throw 2020 and would have lost had the unpredictable and extraordinary circumstances of Covid-19 not occurred, along with Trump’s absolutely bungled response. Covid-19 was the sole event that propelled Biden to the white house. And then he was exactly as ineffective and terrible as all leftists predicted and we got Trump back because of it.
I think both Trump and Biden handled COVID fucking terribly.
Really most nations handled it really fucking badly. I can forgive initial mistakes like not knowing how potent it was or how infectious it was, but once they knew the masks were pointless why the hell did they continue to push that crap everywhere.
It’s absolutely a disgrace how the Dems handled it after an entire year of Trump trying to pretend it just didn’t exist or was just a cold and using that in their campaign. Then when it became convenient for them they began to pretend it was over.
Politicians continuing to be fuckin useless yet again.
“two”
I’m not really sure what you were trying to get at with that comment. Are you implying that it wasn’t two times that Donald Trump won?
Oh sorry. “Two” parties.
Well, whoever it is, it’ll be them running against Trump, because he’s already hinted at running for a third term, and he doesn’t give a shit if things he does are illegal. And again, whoever it is the Dems pick, they’ll be such shitheads that they’ll lose the election against Trump again, for the third time. There is absolutely no chance whatsoever they learn their lesson in the next four years, because democrats are mentally incapable of even considering they could ever do anything wrong.
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I was saying that the left says he’s a liar 24/7 but for whatever reason chose to believe him completely when he made that comment. But then they just go right back to calling him a liar when he made clarifications afterwards.
It’s not that complex if you have a handful of functioning brain cells my guy.
I thought it was strange why you were defending Trump, till you started in about “tHe LeFt”. Now it makes perfect sense.
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If they did, then all the neolibs were wrong that voters don’t care about Palestine…
Which logically means the party needs to move to the left at least enough so that genocide isn’t acceptable.
Instead, they act like fucking trump supporters and brag that a genocide is still happening.
There’s zero logic or empathy with them, which is why some people call them “blue maga”.
They’re the ones that didn’t stop watching CNN even after the new buyers blatantly and publicly said their goal was to become the fox news if he left.
You are aware that people can hold two beliefs at once, right?
So, not voting and encouraging others not to vote because “blue MAGA” is actively helping the people who are currently enacting genocide+.
That “inside” is doing increasingly heavy lifting these days. Seems to me that increasingly the only successful change comes from working outside the system.
See, this is where communication always breaks down…
If a progressive is politically active right now it’s safe to assume that they held their nose and voted D.
Which I’ve done just like I’ve always done.
But we tried to warn people trump was going to win if Dems kept moving right…
Dems kept moving right, and we were right. Then when we try to talk about how to win next time and how to gain back all the votes moving right cost us…
We get people trying to say we’re the problem because we want to fucking win.
I got a big post history, plenty of opportunities for you to find a single comment where I’ve ever advocated for not voting for the least evil candidate in the general.
But if you got a little faith you can take my word it’s not in here.
Yes, it is possible to be extremely ignorant of the effectiveness of various political actions.
Whether you are for or against voting, claiming it’s the most powerful act a citizen can perform is completely absurd. I don’t know a single informed person of any ideology who thinks this.
Phrasing matters. There is a reason I put “Inside the system”.
What is the reason?
Maybe I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. The way I understand it, it’s very misleading or incorrect. There are plenty of actions people can take that are far more impactful than voting. I guess whether those various actions are categorized as inside or outside of the system might be up for debate in some cases. But I’m not sure why you would even be imposing that restriction in the first place.
The reason I said, “inside the system” is that we need to use the avenues provided to us to try to fight back along side other means, such as protests. We need to unify now more than ever, so lumping everyone who uses the system to affect change into “blue MAGA” is only harming progress.
I agree completely with the need to unify. I just want people to stop thinking politics begins and ends with voting. Even if you don’t want to do anything disruptive there are still things you can do like canvassing or letter-writing or becoming local party delegate and influencing parties from the inside. I largely agree with leftists that the system will never be completely transformed from the inside but it’s better than doing nothing.
However I also think we’re getting to the point where more disruptive civil resistance actions will be necessary.
Pro-Palestine protest votes didn’t cost the Dems the election, but that a single group was not the deciding factor in a contest does not absolve them of responsibility. IE single-issue pro-Israel voters probably were not the reason for Trump’s victory, but they still deserve a portion of the blame in voting for Trump.
And many of these selfsame pro-Palestine protest vote types are continuing their dumbass games even as Trump greenlights fascism both at home and abroad - like everyone fucking told them he would.
Haha it’s people with flawed logic like you who deserve all the blame.
People who think like you should have to pass aptitude tests before they vote since they literally lined up behind an undemocratically appointed presidential candidate who had no concrete policy position except vibez and no fundamental changes from Biden.
People who couldn’t see an obvious and humiliating loss coming for Harris and the democrats since Biden was the candidate are the only people responsible for this disaster.
The democrats could have given you options. They didn’t because they don’t care about you. They paraded around a half-dead 80 year old man as competent and made excuses for his ineptitude while telling everyone who said he wasn’t fit that they were the ones who were actually crazy. Then they do a last minute bait and switch because he is literally falling apart before the world’s eyes. They lied to you over and over and you are still carrying water for them. Does the history of the situation not matter now that Trump is president?
That’s exactly why people are being called bluemaga.
Yes, of course, how could I not see that “no fundamental changes from Biden” was a horror worth electing a literal fascist. Thank you for informing me that worsening every issue facing us was the preferable choice in order to teach those darn Dems a lesson. Many of us filthy poors and minorities will suffer and die, but that’s a sacrifice you and your’s are willing to make, right?
Why are you hung up on the idea of teaching democrats a lesson? Democrats are not owed votes. They have to earn them. They did not earn them this time for a multitude of reasons, but you want to blame everyone else except them and their weak policies, weak campaigns, weak candidates, and shattered moral compass.
You can prefer the slow unnoticeable slip into fascism the democrats were offering instead of the highway to hell version republicans are unrolling, but please just be honest about it.
Biden did nothing to improve American’s every day lives. The cost of living keeps going up and all the democrats do is say, “hey, the parliamentarian that you have never heard of says we can’t do $15 minimum wage, but we can give ourselves raises and send billions to Ukraine for a proxy war and even more billions to Israel for a genocide. oh things are getting too expensive out there? slow down on the avocado toast. get a job as a coder. see our lives are fine, why are you all complaining.”
We were going to end up in the same place whether democrats or republicans won. It’s just more pleasing to you draped in blue instead of red. I thought maybe TDS democrats would finally start fighting for Palestine once Trump came into office, but they instead turned their derangement on the people who don’t want American to fund and safeguard a genocide. Crazy times we are witnessing.
The dimbass games are posts like this instead of arguing for civil disruption and actions beyond elections. The protesters entire point was the election won’t stop the genocide either way and further action is needed. Trying to bait them into an argument about an election that’s already fucking over serves nothing. Unless you don’t care about the issue in the first place and just want to be divisive about it.
And in the interest of furthering that point, they did everything they could to ensure a Democratic defeat. After all, if Palestinians are genocided by Israel, it’s only fair that American minorities get genocided by Republicans, right?
I’m not trying to bait them into any sort of argument. They’re long past help. They’re out here on Lemmy already praising Trump as the ‘lesser evil’ and insisting, even now, that there’s no difference between Trump and Harris in terms of policy. Any argument with them is fucking pointless.
But I’m sorry that you don’t like that I’m not giving them asspats for their ‘principled’ stand against American minorities over an issue that, even according to your summary of their motivations, they realized would not be changed by their attacks on the non-fascist candidate in the election.
Solidarity for me, but not for thee. It doesn’t work out well.
Yes, this is why the smartest choice for LGBT folk in 1939 Poland would have been to welcome the Nazis, what with Poland being, at the time, far from LGBT-friendly. Because if there’s not solidarity for everyone, there should be solidarity for no one.
/s, for all of those out there patting each other on the back over ensuring the fascist won the 2024 American presidential election.
Or maybe when voting makes it impossible to achieve justice you should move towards other forms of resistance, like my original point was. Part of that resistance is nonparticipation. It’s an expected outcome. I voted for Harris but you don’t see me clutching my pearls over the idea that maybe this system just needs to go.
Oh, of course, when you can’t achieve justice by voting, the correct decision is to ensure that voting results in the worst possible resolution. If you can’t have justice, you must have as much injustice as possible. The only moral choice, of course. Basic accelerationism. Every good revolutionary knows this.
Like fucking what? The easy answer of “We’re going to rise up and firebomb the rich any day now :‘’')” has been parroted by leftist wannabe suburban kids since the 70s; fuck’s sake, I’ve heard the line myself for the past 20 fucking years. And what has happened? Where are these masses ready to rise up, since they find voting no longer radical enough for their tastes?
They aren’t exchanging voting for more effective forms of change. They’re just abandoning voting, and replacing it with jack fucking shit. They continue to sit on their fucking asses, like always. They don’t organize en masse, they don’t take up lone wolf violence. They do nothing, except play at purity games to jerk themselves off over how pure they are for abandoning as many minorities and oppressed groups as they can to literal fucking fascists. And you know who suffers for it?
All of us.
Fuck’s sake.
Are you fucking kidding me? “Resistance is nonparticipation”?
What a fucking joke. Am I suppose to thank these twats for nonparticipating us into camps? Should I thank them for nonparticipating Ukraine into a potential genocide? What did nonparticipation gain us ‘revolutionary’ elements? Are we better poised to strike against the system now? No? We’re actually worse off? Fucking fantastic.
“This system needs to go” does not need the addendum “Therefore, I’m going to make the system as terrible as possible”.
You think I’m naive for telling you how things work? Believing that someone is going to remain participatory with a government that’s genuinely greenlighting genocide like the Dems were because the opposition will… greenlight genocide… is delusional. If that’s their primary moral issue, they are expected to not participate.
What’s naive is going through this shit since the 80s and actually expecting electoralisim alone to change things. Newsflash, it hasn’t. The problems are more fundamental. Whining about someone else not putting work in is similarly unconvincing.
Except they didnt vote for trump and it’s disgusting to pretend otherwise
But they helped him become president. Do you understand that you can help someone become president even if you don’t vote for them? Is that a concept that you can grasp?
Pro-Israel voters absolutely voted for Trump.
So we’re discussing a tiny portion of people now to avoid being called out for the authoritarian vote bullshit now, eh?
What is that supposed to even mean?
Well at least you admit to awful reading capabilities
Bruh, I explicitly made the point of “Being a small part of the problem does not absolve people of being part of the problem”, and your response is
Between the fact that we were discussing a ‘tiny portion of people’ from the very start and that ‘authoritarian vote bullshit’ is a vague phrase that makes no solid assertions except “vote bad >:(” for some reason, you’ve said nothing of substance unless there’s some means of clarifying. I offered you a chance to clarify. You declined.
Don’t really know how much more help you want here. I’m not here to spoonfeed you, guy.
Well said. I really wish people understood that blame can be shared because they really don’t seem to understand that and haven’t since November.
They understand. They just don’t want the blame and want to shift the responsibility for their irresponsible actions to anyone but themselves.
Because the effect is the same. Sorry, again, you might finally experience what others have been.
If you think this shit is gonna be worse internally than externally; you’re gonna have a bad time.
But hey, you know best right? Nobody told you what would happen before, right? They weren’t all proven correct, right?
Well many folks stayed home, and there’s no number for that (by intention…staying home is staying home) so it would be hard to quantify.
But apathy in the face of a trump second term is worth discussing, given what was common knowledge about him by then
I think the 2024 election cycle failure falls almost exclusively on the shoulders of the Democrats.
Yeah Trump and his bullshit obviously played a part in where we ended up, but I genuinely believe that it more so came down to how the Democrats handled things in the years leading up to and during the election. I know people want to shift blame and point fingers. You could even make the argument that I’m doing that right now, but the data says otherwise.
It’s not like Trump is some generally beloved figure that was already super popular. No he’s highly controversial. Many old school Republicans and conservatives despise the guy.
So how does someone that nobody on the left likes and significant chunks on the right also aren’t a fan of end up in the office again?
At some point the democratic party need to actually reflect on where they went wrong instead of just pointing fingers and trying to shift blame.
At the end of the day it’s the job of the party to earn the votes of the people. They clearly didn’t earn enough votes.
Blue lost ground to red in every single state. That type of thing doesn’t just happen outta nowhere.
But what does that mean when you’re up against a party entirely comfortable with outright lying, who are willing to peddle the most extreme, absurd propaganda to a nation of dunces that actually eat it up?
Does that mean Democrats should become what we hate and just start lying and peddling the craziest propaganda possible like the Republicans?
I don’t see the Dem’s campaign as being the issue. The issues are that Americans are dumb as fuck and that we have ALWAYS held Democrats to higher standards. So even if they run a cleaner campaign and have a voting history proving they are better for the middle/lower classes, we still DEMAND more of them, or else we’re going to just go with our abusers instead.
Americans are fucking dumb. That’s not really the Dem’s fault. Especially since they support our public education system WAY more than Republicans do, who want to privatize it.
I acknowledge that the Dems MUST change. That’s super true.
But based on real historical information about trump, plus his clear intentions for this term, I would have elected an incontinent Chihuahua over trump. At least the Chihuahua would have just shit on the floor of the oval office rather than trashing minority/immigrant rights, climate/science progress, and health research and vaccine implementation all in the first week.
So if there’s criticism of dems, which is valid, there’s a seeming lack of acknowledgement of the risks trump poses, which are in great excess to anything DEM status quo
Dems have ALWAYS been held to a higher standard. They have to be flawless, while Republicans literally get to be lawless.
It’s absurd and is a damning condemnation of the intelligence of the average American. If Dems don’t do exactly as we want with halos over their heads, we just throw our hands up in the air and go with our direct abusers instead. It’s pathetic. It’s so childish.
Completely agree.
It’s like the al franken thing. What he did in that joking photo was 100% wrong. But was it requiring he be expelled? Further, an active, effective blue legislator was lost for something conservatives would never have done. In some cases that’s a damn good thing.
So, on the one hand, punishment and criticism was required, but the standard is so sky high that dems just lose to republicans.
Please be clear, I’m not condoning his behavior or suggesting nothing should have happened, but I think the action shouldn’t have been running him out of town without question.
True. People keep saying there was nothing different from the Harris campaign that made her different from Biden, but when you compare the status quo, even the version of the status quo that Biden’s biggest critics were inventing, it would have still been preferable to re-electing the guy who tried to literally steal the election last time. We could have only been so lucky to have the status quo.
The status quo is going to look so desirable. Even just by the end of this year. We’ll be begging for it. Just like we were at the end of 2020. But Americans have the memory span of hamsters. So here we are.
We never needed to discuss Biden accidentally declaring the entire country female.
Or raping people.
Or being a felon.
The inescapable conclusion is that, despite their rhetoric, the Democratic Party did not actually see Trump as a risk to the status quo – at least not the status quo they actually care about (their donors’ plutocratic gravy train), as opposed to the status quo they claim to care about (egalitarianism/civil rights).
In other words, “the Dems MUST change” is a huge understatement. It also has zero chance of happening – other than doubling down on the “we must court the mythological Enlightened Centrist and move right” change for the worse – under the current party leadership.
You make some valid points, certainly. But what people are failing to recognize is none of that matters now.
We had one day, or one vote to stop this tidal wave of evil and we did not do it. Did the DNC fail to appear on a sports talk show, or drive a garbage truck around? Did they not mobilize a nationwide caucus to choose the best candidate from every single human alive today with just four months to go? Yeah, i guess, whatever - it doesn’t matter.
People who refused to stop trump because of Palestine helped ensure that situation would get 100x worse. And they were complete ignorant assholes about it. Dog forbid they learn anything from this.
This. At the end of the day the only responsible ones are the people and whether or not they vote for good, or standby and let evil prevail.
The responsibility for this lies squarely with the American people. Not the DNC.
Yup.
Blame parties all you want. The American people failed at maintaining their democracy. It’s our fault as an electorate. Our shit government is a reflection of our shit electorate.
I’m getting real tired of the “they didn’t earn my vote” bullshit. How about those fools actually look up data over time regarding both parties and make an educated vote? Especially in this election, which was the most blatant election we’re ever likely to see. This was, in no way, a confusing election. The better option was so unbelievably obvious the English language almost lacks words to describe it.
Yo can do some demographic analysis on it and that points to: white suburban men didn’t shou up to vote.
Here’s a video discussing the data
That’s true but you can’t attribute exactly why, which was my point.
You can make some correlations about identifying key issues to a given group, but you can’t guarantee their absence wasn’t just due to either not being able to vote due to work or some other legitimate limitation on their ability, or just being a shitty lazy citizen, or protest absence
It wouldn’t have been a landslide, but it certainly assured the worst case scenario, MAGA sweeping all 3.
Who knows how it would have gone down otherwise, maybe the Democrats regained the house, maybe held onto the Senate. Maybe Trump would have lost, but Republicunts held onto Congress.
Who knows, but any of those would have been 10000x better than letting Drump get a hold of all 3.
Now everyone is screwed in some way.
A lot of the House Senate races are likely due to the “victory fund” nonsense Hillary started and was then passed down to Biden and Kamala
The way it gets away donation limits is using the max from state parties. The last time we got to see the books was after 2016, and states got like 1% of what was donated “for them” to the DNC and Clinton campaigns
There’s no sign anything has changed, and the neoliberals running the party have no requirements to disclose them
So I just assume if they’re hiding the books, they’re hiding grifts at this point.
What do you mean don’t blame the brown people for White America’s problems/identity crisis?
If you think white people have problems because of brown people, you’re a stupid fuck. White people collect all the money that makes white people poor.
“It’s pretty cool that MAGA Elon has so much money and my life sucks.”
Agreed 💯
Fuckin what?