https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eQz4aQjtY0&feature=youtu.be
Maybe not too surprising on this one. I hear the range on these are not great especially if you drive them spiritedly. And given it’s a first gen product on a new tech, no one really knows what these will be worth 5 - 10 years from now.
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If only the Taycan Sporturismo or crossturismo will depreciate!!
When I bought mine I pretty much expected I was eventually going to lose almost everything to depreciation as I plan on keeping it for 6+ years. EV aside, luxury sedans always do terribly, and figured this would be no exception. The last couple years have been an anomaly. I am glad I ended up with the base rwd - it does seem the higher trims ended up suffering more with depreciation.
Used to believe the ev hype. It’s just afad/niche market
Tax breaks have been propping up new EV sales for some time. Then, newish off-lease EVs hit the used market.
Anyone who can afford a sport-luxury EV is continuing to buy/lease new to catch remaining incentives. This depresses the used market for the vehicles.
And if you are a used vehicle bargain shopper why would you pay $80k for the Porsche when you can get to work just as well in a $30k Tesla.
They have big issues with transmission failure. The Audi is also built with the same drive train, and it’s the main reason why they’re going for much cheaper on the used car market.
Most, if not all, EVs have been depreciating heavily.
And most, if not all, high end luxury vehicles depreciate rapidly as well
The Taycan is both
Cherolet Bolt is holding its value really well though
I say this as someone who likes the Taycan, but EVs are appliances. Say what you want about its selling price if its justified or not, but it’s still more of a piece of tech where the battery will degrade with its already limited range.
Unless there’s a plan to cheaply replace and upgrade batteries, I forsee every EVs to depreciate tremendously in just a few years.
Just my personal opinion of course.
As someone intimately familiar with battery technology, modern batteries will degrade at a rate about one half of that of what you see now on 10-year-old EVs (which hold ~80-85% of their max capacity). And cobalt-free LFP batteries barely degrade at all, they have projected lifetimes of 20-30+ years, and are in all standard-range Teslas among others.
And they continue to work even after they have degraded that much, they will go on to 70, 60%, often even 50% capacity before they start dying off. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Taycan still has a decent useable battery capacity in 20-25 years.
Of course. It’s a first-gen luxury product in an economic environment where people are tightening their wallets and not taking out 8% loans.
The more cars become like computers on wheels, the more they will hold value like a computer.
Maybe we should’ve done more with hybrids earlier on instead of being stuck with electric or ICE only.
Many such cases
So just like every other electric car or device with batteries inside.
Who would’ve guessed
Lol 😆
lemme guess, it’s why you didn’t buy one
I would never buy an electric car for this reason, yes.
A gas car will use the same amount of fuel, drive the same distance on a tank and have the same power after 20 years as it did new. Electric cars won’t.
sorry man, this wasn’t an attack at all. you don’t have to extol the virtues of ICE vs Electric, i will only buy an EV when/if i’m legally required to.
it was more of a joke about how people are like LOL OBV when bentleys sell for 1/8 of their MSRP 5 years later.
the people buying high end cars brand new off the lot do not care about depreciation. they have other assets that offset that loss.
you’re absolutely right, electronics depreciate fast, cars depreciate fast, put that together et voila. but for most of the population if we want something and can afford it, we buy it. electronics included. iphone is the number one device in the world and literally no one cares that they’re not worth anything as soon as we open the box. but add in the fact that not everyone has access to a porsche and everyone is like HA SUCKER!
totally agree with that general sentiment but I can also understand why it would be a little surprising, considering that Porsche in general arguably has the least amount of depreciation per vehicle over literally every other manufacturer/car model
considering that Porsche in general arguably has the least amount of depreciation per vehicle over literally every other manufacturer/car model
I feel like that only applies to their sports cars (911/Caymans). Cayennes don’t depreciate any better than a comparable X5 / Q7 / GLE.
Very accurate. I honestly wasn’t even considering the SUV’s in my argument because I was considering the taycon a sports car
I feel like that only applies to their sports cars (911/Caymans).
For fun, I looked up used 911s for sale, and like a lot of my tabs, left it open. Over the past few weeks, the lowest priced search result (a higher mileage S 992) has dropped significantly. Maybe the bull market is feeling some strain.
reminds me of 3D tvs - hope none of you “idiots” bought one :)
Jokes on you:
I went straight from bix box CRT with Scart connector to LG OLED 😂
Me - but I’ve been downvoted multiple times for saying the same here by the EV legion. They point to some esoteric limited production examples like the Tesla roadster going for good amounts used… but every single mainstream electric car will see an “electronics” depreciation curve. If Porsche made the 911 an EV, it will see much faster than typical Porsche depreciation too.
but every single mainstream electric car will see an “electronics” depreciation curve.
Every single mainstream ICE car sees a depreciation curve. Based on how many ICE cars get produced, ones that appreciate in value are no less esoteric than the original Tesla roadster or the SLS AMG Electric Drive.
$22 and 4 mins for me to change the battery in any Nio car here in China.
Really? Impressive
Yeah if you don’t have time to charge, you can just swap the battery out instead. Or if your battery is degraded, just swap it out.
They have deprecated more than other electric cars at the same price point. At least here in Norway.
Lots of cars depreciate fast.
It’s endemic to how they are sold and what they just are: mechanical devices to move us around. Stuff wears out, gets dirty, needs service.
Just try convincing all the car buyers of the period between late 2020-2022 that, no, their car did not appreciate in value, unless they sold it.
People about to FAFO (f around and find out) over the next year or two. Upside down car loans are going to be the norm.
Nah bro, appreciating investment, robotaxi bro
It not even necessarily the battery part. It’s moreso the fact that now is about the time that the first batch of EVs is entering the secondary market. Before, you would almost pay the same for a new one vs a secondhand EV for a lot of these first generation EVs.
Plus it’s an expensive car, high end cars always depreciate quickly, because the market for expensive and used cars is very small.
Tesla Roadsters are appreciating now.
EVs depreciate like a stone in water and have the shelf-life of a pint of strawberries?
Color me shocked!
I wonder if in the future cars will get modded to have bigger/better battery packs put in as aftermarket as opposed to a tune.
Environment and the children in the mines will surely like that
So just like every other electric car or device with batteries inside.
Who would’ve guessed
Tesla’s were appreciating for a while. Right now the depreciation is primarily driven by EV price cuts due to high competition and high interest rates.
Considering after 100k miles you essentially have to pay a fuck ton of money to get new batteries.
Not sure why battery’s aren’t plug and play modular yet
Yeah that’s one thing I don’t hear about often. But the batteries on all cars will and the process will only accelerate with time.
wait till you find out that every car has batteries
Not as fast as e-tron GT.
Base is slower than a Model 3 Long Range, not even the Performance which would still be tens of thousands less.
The e-tron GT is depreciating even harder!
…which are also hugely depreciating. Tons of examples of $30K+ discounts off MSRP brand new.
They both use the same drive train, and I know they both have the dreaded transmission failure. It’s a big job to fix, so it’s no wonder both are depreciating like the price fell off a cliff.
Porsche has 10-15 year warranty, I’ll gladly take new transmissions for free for a decade
All of this generation of EVs will depreciate like crazy as battery technologies will improve a lot over the next few years and become somewhat more affordable.
Most EVs are also undesirable eyesores - the Taycan looks great, but it is a rare exceptions. It is like they have been all designed by 4-years old who think their flashing shoes are the pinnacle of design.
battery technologies will improve a lot over the next few years
Why do people believe this? The time vs. $/kWh curve has been flattening out exponentially the last few years. Battery companies are pouring billions into R&D, and we’re only seeing slight incremental improvements in the capability of the technology as every facet of production is optimized.
There is nothing to support this blind faith that some new battery chemistry will be the savior of the BEVs.The new silicon oxide batteries are claimed to double energy density to over 500 Wh/kg. They have been developed and will start entering the market in the next few years. Solid state batteries exist but are too expensive at the moment. Toyota is hoping to build a cheaper version with fewer rare earth metals to bring the price down towards the end of the decade. That remains to be seen and hopefully SSB will not become another nuclear fusion situation where it is perpetually just beyond the horizon.
The new silicon oxide batteries
First developed over 20 years ago. Not exactly new.
claimed
Yea, in a laboratory setting. Replacing graphite anodes with silicon is problematic for consumer products due to the massive volumetric changes when lithiated and its high reactivity. So let’s say they found a way to mitigate these drawbacks and applied this to an EV. It may look better of paper, but it won’t match the cycle lifespan of an NCM based cell. Lifespan is already a massive concern for EVs considering their price and unknown depreciation curves.
They have been developed and will start entering the market in the next few years.
I’ll believe it when I see it.
Solid state batteries exist but are too expensive at the moment.
SSB just means the liquid or gel electrolyte between the anode and cathode has been replaced with a solid conductor. It’s not some magical thing that’s super hard to achieve like fusion. The point is to address the issue of thermal instability in over current situations when your electrolyte would tend to vaporize and burn when the cell ruptures. It does that nicely but brings its own set of headaches to the table, like grain boundary resistances and low charge instability. There’s no free lunch and any “new” thing is going to have its own set of drawbacks.
The bigger problem is all the DRM and inability to do basic repairs.
Once it’s spent, it’s spent. Traditionally cars were quite fixable.
You should be able to drop in after market batteries with improvements halfway through its life. But manufacturers don’t like that idea.
They want us to lease forever…
My Kia Stinger is rapidly approaching 90k miles, depending on what pans out I may soar past 130k in the next year and a bit. If so I’ll be on the hunt for a new car & my driving pattern will likely have changed radically by then (dropped by a factor of 10 or more, lol).
I’m eagerly awaiting the next gen of VAG EV battery tech to be announced to influence prices on current gen Taycans and ETron GTs - they’d absolutely have more than enough range for me & if prices drop, all the better!
All of this generation of EVs will depreciate like crazy as battery technologies will improve a lot over the next few years and become somewhat more affordable.
Batteries and the tech becoming obsolete is one reason for EVs depreciating a lot
The Taycan gets 260 miles at 75mph in summer and recharges in just over 20 minutes, it’s not obsolete, that’s still one of the best available on the market.
According to the AA, the average car doing 10k miles a year loses 60% of its value after 3 years, battery improvements do not happen quickly enough to make a big difference, and even if the battery halved in cost, it’s not as if the price of a Porsche is suddenly going to be cheap, the new price might drop from £85k to £75k, that is not enough to make a big impact on used car prices.
It’s just the same as always, new cars lose value quickly.
Hey I’ll have you find my i3 is gorge……
Oh never mind
I do find the i3 pretty cool because how quirky it is. Sexy? no, Attractive? Absolutely.
The Mercedes black faceplate 🤮. It really is crazy how awful some of the new designs are, electrification is a great excuse to mix up car design but that doesn’t mean ignore the fundamentals.
That’s your opinion that the Taycan looks bad. Not everyone shares your opinion lol.
I literally said that the Taycan looks great,
Not really good for consumers though. Why would someone want an EV when it’s going to depreciate so badly? I bet this slows EV buying even more so.
They are too expensive to buy new for most people and so many are waiting for them to hit the secondhand market. The mass market is buying them at lower prices hence the depreciation. Luxury german cars have been depreciating like this for decades yet they still sell well new. There are plenty of people with money to buy these luxury vehicles new and upgrade quickly to the newest version while eating the depreciation after a few years.
Exactly. I don’t plan to buy one anytime soon. They are terrible value, even with the gas saving.
The problem with this is that, for over 100 years, car design has followed function, and that function has included a stonking motor in the front. That shape has defined how we think a car should look like for generations. Along come EVs, which have a completely different set of functional requirements, and suddenly there’s no need for things like a long hood. Car designers now have to marry the form of a car that only needs to account a large plate of batteries near the bottom with the expectations of customers who have a crystallized vision of what a normal car’s proportions should look like. The end result are EVs that many think look odd.
I get it, but there are shapes that are simply more attractive than others. Cars that are muscular or feminine are more pleasing to the eyes as try reminds us of what make some people attractive. A crossover looks like a potato. Nobody lust for a potato.
And talking about form following function, there is no need for all that busy cladding and lines that goes nowhere.
Also EV’s have a lot of tech on the interior that ages poorly. Any car with a big computer/tablet in the dash is going to seem super dated in ten years. It’s like having iPhones out and you’re still using a palm pilot.
Rich Rebuilds just addressed this in a video. Tesla wants ~$20k to replace the batteries in a 10 year old Tesla with 100k miles on it. With the current prices of used Teslas it’s literally cheaper to just buy a new one than to buy a used one and replace the batteries. They are quickly becoming disposable.
They are indeed terrible value.
Tesla wants ~$20k to replace the batteries in a 10 year old Tesla with 100k miles on i
That’s not far off an engine replacement from the dealer on an ICE vehicle, the price isn’t the issue it’s how many of them do need a new battery every 10 years
Even the Taycan has some weird proportions.
It is very dependent on what color you get it in.
Black = Batmobile
Frozen Berry = super awkward
Ev cars are on the way like all other tech items and I believe the trend will be here to stay. A 1700 cell phone, a 4000 graphics card, or a 10000 dollar 77 inch oled a few years ago for example.
As EVs become cheaper to make, and technology for it accelerates at a rapid pace, people will be replacing their cars more often.
There’s nothing wrong with used EVs except their batteries. We need the supply to catch up to demand, get aftermarket battery manufacturers rolling, and be able to put new batteries into old Nissan Leafs for $1-2k.
You’re right. I’m just explaining why they are depreciating like crazy.
I have a VW E-Golf. Most people have no idea it’s electric
That’s a good choice. We need more EVs that looks like regular cars.
BMW i4 and Audi Q8 e—tron are also good examples of this
Yeah. I don’t like the grill on the i4, but it does look like a normal car. It is the one I would buy if I was forced to buy an EV for some reason.
The Q8 will never be desirable, it is a potato on wheels. But it does look normal.
I was really interested in getting an e-Golf. How is the real world range of the car? Can you actually get around 125 miles in it?
I love mine. 125-140 is realistic. Might be a little optimistic if you’re doing 80 on the freeway. Handles great, very comfortable. I plug mine in at night on a regular 110 (slow) charger and it keeps me topped off enough that I haven’t bothered to get a faster charger. (It’d be expensive for me because I’d have to trechnto.my garage)
On the rare occasion I have multiple long driving days in a row, then I take it to the public charger a block away and top it off faster.
It is nearly perfect for my day to day needs.
Downsides: it’s a little small for say a beach trip with the family, starts to feel pretty stuffed once you add boogie boards and a small cooler.
Not for road trips. The slow charging time and limited range means you don’t want to be road tripping regularly. But my wife and I have another car (and we are actually hopefully replacing that car with a hybrid this week). We basically share both cars (my wife is WFH so she doesn’t drive much) and prioritize using the EV as much as possible depending on who is doing what. I think for a 2 car family one EV and one hybrid will be a pretty optimal blend of efficiency and convenience.
The third car is the fun car. :)
You take that back right now, light up shoes ARE peak design
Mr. Musk is that you?
Whenever anyone mentions light up shoes you gotta make sure to drop the song.
I agree on all counts. And I think it’s just a phase. EVs are here to stay in one capacity or another, and they’re going to go back to looking like normal cars once the novelty wears off.
For normal day to day commutes to work and the grocery store they are great because you don’t need a huge battery pack but for longer distance driving there needs to be a better alternative imo
Not every car needs to do everything. If you’re driving across the country on a regular basis then don’t buy an EV. If you need to haul mulch all the time then maybe Miata isn’t actually the answer.
If it doesn’t fit your usecase then I wouldn’t wait on EVs to cater to it, at least until electric infrastructure is ubiquitous. I think gas cars will be around for a long time yet.
SUVs are so popular and sell so well because they can do “everything” or are marketed that way.
they’re going to go back to looking like normal cars once the novelty wears off.
I think the exact opposite. EVs will allow completely new types of vehicles and as battery and motor tech flattens competitive advantage, automakers will lean in to unique vehicles.
Canoo, Aptera, Citroen Ami, to a lesser extent the VW Buzz (bus) and Cybertruck.
As for the Canoo, Buzz and Microlino (which you didn’t mention but I think fits) there’s a trend towards going back to older style car designs because they’re now feasible. So I totally agree that it’s going to change, but I think there’s going to be a pretty big exploration of retro ideas.
As for the Aptera… Man. I would love for them to get off the ground and I actually really want one, but at this point I’m a little skeptical. And the cyber truck is a mess.
Regardless if those specific examples succeed, we’re just at the beginning of EVs and we can already see the unique ideas floating.
20 years from now when Kia, Buick, and BMW could all offer the same 500hp and 100 “mpg”? The competitive pressure will push harder.
I guess I’m sort of hoping Fisker has a good run. That Ocean model looks quite practical, but still having some really nice features. Price is reasonable for what it is.
Not sure though. If global economy tightens up more, the first ones out the door will be the made to order, startup EV companies.
I want Aptera to get off the ground badly as well.
A car that is efficient enough charging in the sun is workable? That’s some shit if society collapses would be told as legends of the ancients.
The taycan and lucid air are really the only two EVs that I think actually look good
I agree. Unfortunately, they are also way too expensive and therefore lack mass market appeal.
EVs today will be like PCs in the early to mid 90s, with the exception that those computers were essentially mandatory purchases and EVs are not.
Not really. An electric car with 0-60 in 4 seconds and 300 miles range isn’t going to be obsolete any time soon. Pc technology and progression made old PCs practically useless. An ev with those specs, assuming it’s reliable, would never be obsolete.
EV’s don’t have a real world 300 mile range on the highway.
Even the base Taycan with the big battery (so the longest range version) only does 280 miles on the highway. And that’s 100% to 0 range, which obviously isn’t realistic. Take the 70% range (draining down to around 10%, charging up to 80% between stops) and it dips under 200 miles.
And with the adoption of NACS and the impact of calendar aging… no EV on the road today will be anything but a fully depreciated, obsolete relic in 10 years.
Even the base Taycan with the big battery (so the longest range version)
The base Taycan has a 79 kWh battery. There are many models with the larger 93 kWh battery pack like the performance battery plus models and the GTS model which is the range king. The GTS does get 300 miles of range.
Our test car was equipped with the optional 83.7-kWh Performance Battery Plus
See also:
Models with the larger battery—Porsche labels this pack 93.4 kWh, but only 83.7 kWh are useable
So this base RWD (IIRC) with the smallest wheels and this upgraded battery is the one with the most range. And that range gets you less than 200 miles between charges on a road-trip (the 70% range).
Your friend is not seeing 300 real-world highway miles:
At the conclusion of our 100 miles, the Tesla was sitting at a 55 percent state of charge, and the Porsche was just behind at 52 percent. We then used the rate of battery depletion and range reduction—which, given our idealized test conditions, was extremely stable—to extrapolate out to a predicted total range figure.
The results were far closer than we expected: 209 miles for the Taycan, and 222 for the Model S.
Keep in mind that’s a worse result for the 4S than the one I posted at only 146 miles between charges for the 70% range.
I’m not knocking the Taycan specifically. It generally performs close-ish to its rated range. But no one drives till empty, or only fills their gas tank up to 80% in an ICE either. BEVs are just different. And very few BEVs hit even close to 300 real world miles on the highway even ignoring the 70% rule of thumb.
Realistically, when you’re road-tripping in a BEV you’re not skipping chargers anyway typically. You pick a bottom SoC you’re comfortable with (for me that’s 30+ miles of remaining range to leave range to get to a hotel with charging if necessary or something), and then you charge enough at each stop to maintain that buffer. So that could well be 10 to 65% for a Taycan 4S since Electrify America generally aims for locations about 120 miles apart.
Your friend is claiming almost twice the real world range tested by Car&Driver. With pretty sedate driving, within town (so you’re not following the 70% guideline) sure, that might be possible with lower average speed city miles.
But then again, that doesn’t matter since no one has range anxiety in the city unless your car is only rated for ~150 miles or less.
I saw a gently used 2018 E-tron going for the same as a Kia Sorrento. The reason is the tech may be there for driver support and the luxury side of things - but getting 100-150 miles per charge is not sufficient for a lot of people and that’s what you can expect from these batteries if you use them regularly, especially in a cold climate.
Buying expensive high end EVs right now are like buying early large plasma TVs. Remember when those were 15k+? If you want to pay to be on the cutting edge then by all means, but it may not make sense looking back 5-10 years later.
These have some of the worst depreciation I’ve ever seen. Many other luxury sedans depreciate quickly as well, but it’s typically with mileage along with age. These are dropping massively even with little miles. Reminds me of Maserati depreciation.
I had one as a loaner recently while my car was in for service. It’s seriously nothing special and it feels notably cheaper inside than my Panamera and really any other Porsche I’ve driven. I can understand why they aren’t holding value well.
Never followed Jaguar? They love to depreciate 80% in 5 years or less.
Pre/early Covid low mile $40k XKRS was the dream.
Come on F-Type SVR - hit that threshold for me, baby.
I remember looking at F-TYPE S before the pandemic hit in 2019. There was like a 2017 model year with 15000 miles on it for 30k and a 7-year CPO warranty, for a car that was 80k MSRP.
I don’t know about the SVR, but I’m pretty sure Rs are gonna go that route pretty quickly if the market returns to norm.
jags, bentleys, rolls and mclarens… some of the worst offenders. hmmm. something seems similar but i just cant put my finger on it.
They have awful reliability and could always be found for a STEEP discount. The lease residuals on some of their sedans were in the low 40% range after 3 years. So that depreciation isn’t exactly unexpected.
You better hold onto that 2018, the 3rd gen Panamera has the Taycan interior.