read in Vince voice

Economics: Our findings are just as rigorous as these other sciences we swear!

I once called economics a pseudoscience in a reddit comment and some libertarian-capitalist type got suuuper butthurt about it.
He said I don’t understand the word pseudoscience. I said, “no I understand it just fine. You don’t understand economics.”
His only response was to call that a “no, you” argument. Dunning-Kruger on full display.
Basic foundational “observations” by Economics aren’t based on the Scientific Method.
I wish the Scientific Method didn’t have “Method” in the name because while it is a sensible name it also is misleading.
Science is “method agnostic”, a new promising method may uncover other methods and theories that totally pull the rug out from under old theories and methods that is a necessary and sometimes brutal aspect to scientific progress.
Economics, because it began and is sustained for the most part as a system of methods searching for justification for their continuation, is largely incapable of undergoing these necessary “method resets” that come periodically in any scientific discipline.
Thus no matter if locally good science is being done in economics it is undermined by the uncomfortable need to preserve the survival of the foundatinal contextualizing methods and axioms they invoke implicitly from the truth uncovered, a vice that plagues any human endeavor consciously and subconsciously and not only keeps Economics from being a real science it also largely sucks the oxygen out of the room for actually scientifically rigorous study of these phenomena.
Alchemy is a great analog here to compare Economics too. Alchemists in the pursuit of trying to figure out how to turn things to gold did interact with and in some ways advance chemistry, but alchemy could never divest itself from its own pre-existing beliefs and methods as chemistry discovered more and more of the universe and began to accurately predict more and more of it.
If alchemy was capable discarding old methods to pursue understanding phenomena more lucidly and precisely chemistry would probably be called “alchemy” in english nowadays and alchemy would be called “pseudo-alchemy”.
Economics equates to alchemy they express a desire of a system of methods, axioms and explanations to produce a certain end goal and it forms fatal shackles to the follies of the past.
I like the term Scientific filter. Theories get endlessly filtered though experimentation untill we get purer and purer truth.
Any time I’ve attempted to argue for alternative economic paradigms (not just alternative economic systems, but actually rethinking the fundamental assumptions and theories by which we study and attempt to understand economic systems and phenomena), lazy thinkers hit me with the “nuh uh, that’s not what [classical economic theory] says! You don’t know what you’re talking about.”
It’s a thoughtless appeal to authority lacking any substance. The word for that is “dogma.”
I think a major casualty of the war on science funded primarily by fossil fuel interests has been that the kneejerk pro-science response has become a lazy appeal to authority.
People say “99% of scientists all agree listen to them you are not worthy of having an opinion on this!” and while it is arguably true lol, it also sends a message undermining to the interests of science.
Science is the practice of skepticism not of finding facts and crusading under their banner in a materialist campaign of conquest. Facts are rather the inevitable residue of science after science has subjected theories to extended and diverse torturuous inquisition.
I wish people defended science by saying it isn’t a set of Correct Facts but a system of Skepticism that has thoroughly examined a shared body of knowledge and that you should assume that if the more fantastic sounding theories contained within that arena of “skeptical melee” haven’t been dismantled that you can probably trust that they are real, as fantastic as they sound.
This when you shorten it sounds like an appeal to authority where the scientists are given undue authority but it is not the same thing. What matters is the environment of genuine skepticism that scientific theories and “facts” are subjected to in order to establish their validity that matters.
What definition of pseudoscience would capture economics without capturing medicine, ecology, or meteorology?
Everyone’s just using models here, and the way we incorporate statistical observations to define the limits of the models’ scope, and refine the models over time, or reject the models entirely, applies to economists, meteorologists, seismologists, and many branches of actual human medicine.
Popper would define pseudoscience as predictions that can’t be falsified, but surely that can’t apply to the idea of the weatherman predicting rain and being wrong, right?
Kuhn came along and argued that science is about solving problems within paradigms, and sometimes rejecting paradigms in scientific revolutions (geocentrism vs heliocentrism, Newtonian physics versus Einstein’s relativity), but it wasn’t a particularly robust test for separating out pseudoscience.
Lakatos categorized things further at explaining how model-breaking observations could be handled within the structure of how science performs its work (limiting the scope of the model, expanding the complexity of the model to fit the new observations, proposing specific exception handlers), but also observed the difference between the hard core of a discipline, in which attempts at refutation were not tolerated, and auxiliary hypotheses where the scientists were free to test their ideas for falsifiability.
But when you use these ideas to try to understand how science works, I don’t think economics really stands out as less scientific than cancer research or climatology or other statistically driven scientific disciplines.
To quote the order commenter here, basic foundational “observations” by Economics aren’t based on the Scientific Method.
In what way? And how does that differ from how medicine measures pain?
Namely, the scientific method relies on inductive reasoning and foundational economics relies heavily on deductive reasoning.
The difference isn’t the data itself, it’s what they do with it. Medicine takes subjective, self-reported pain scales and plugs them directly into rigorous, double-blind, randomized controlled trials where they isolate variables to test a strictly falsifiable hypothesis.
Foundational economics, on the other hand, takes subjective concepts like “utility” or “rational self-interest” and uses them as unfalsifiable, deductive assumptions to guess how massive, open systems work.
Basically, you can put a new painkiller in a placebo-controlled trial to scientifically prove if it reduces that subjective pain, but you can’t put a macroeconomy in a petri dish to run a controlled, repeatable experiment on supply and demand.
This difference invites a lot of woo.
Plenty of medical science doesn’t lend itself well to double blind studies. In vivo infection models can’t ethically be tested with double blind studies, and can only be observed. Lots of medicine advances through observational studies, too, like almost anything relating to nutrition or lifestyle or trauma. There’s no double blind study on how survivable car accidents are.
Plus double blind studies themselves don’t necessarily have any kind of explanatory power (see the entire field of anesthesia where we know how much of each anesthetic it generally takes to put people under, but we don’t know the underlying mechanism it uses to make people go under). Or, for that matter, Tylenol (whose mechanism of action remains a mystery).
That’s just it, though. Outliers are treated fundamentally differently between them, they are treated as bugs in economics, but as features in medicine.
If a “universal” drug fails for a specific group, medicine views that outlier as a falsification that proves the rule is incomplete. They use the exception to fix the theory.
Foundational economics does the opposite: it treats axioms like “rational actors” as holy scripture, so when people don’t behave like the math says they should, the economists just dismiss them as “irrational” and keep the model exactly the same.
Even if we don’t know the mechanism behind Tylenol, we can still falsify whether or not it works. You can’t falsify a “rational actor” because the moment someone does something weird, you just move the goalposts. Medicine is trying to map the territory; foundational economics insists the map is right and the territory is just acting up. It’s barely based in reality.
Physics: oh, and if you look close enough, it’s actually all probability too.
fucking computer science is going from on par with mathematics to worse than biology
“why do you guys do it that way”
“Look because if we don’t sacrifice the goat on Thursday the code breaks, idk what to tell you”
Social sciences: Mayhaps, but only for very specific conditions once in time
The author’s barely disguised
fetishpreconceived notion
Engineering: We only care if it works, even if it breaks math/physics/chemistry/biology.
You can bother figuring out why. Or I might be forced to in order to iterate…
The failure rate falls within the tolerances
And the tolerances are set so big that the failures are covered.
Economics: the law is true as long as people believe it’s true.
Kind of like fairies, when you think about it
Or Orks!
Alternatively, with capitalism giving all the power to the richest: “The law is true because I’ll hurt you if you try to defend yourself and I have plenty of class traitors to help me.”
Economics. You forgot Economics. Heres a bunch of rules.
Let’s Assume you are an Economist. Now if you first overestimate and then underestimate, on average, you are correct in your estimates, Ceteris Paribas .
Psychology furiously staring from the corner but afraid to speak lest it be made to sit at the folding table with Astrology and Tarot readings.
They’re sharing a table with economics.
Behavior analysis: we don’t even care what species you are.
Now. Get in the box. There are a couple of levers. You’ll figure it out. Don’t mind the cameras.
Ontology - Fuck you, buddy
Meanwhile the mathematicians who got a bit too close Philosophy are still arguing about which logic to use and if a proof by contradiction is even a proof at all.
Ehh…
Gödel basically showed we can never know which “mathematics” is the “correct one”.
“Proven true assuming my axioms are true” is closer to reality.
Exactly.
HERE’S A THEOREM: IF IT’S PROVEN, IT’S TRUE EVERYWHERE, FOREVER
But at the same time, even if it’s true everywhere forever, it might still not be provable, because Gödel.
even if it’s true everywhere forever, it might still not be provable, because Gödel.
No. Gödel’s completeness theorem says that if something is true in every model of a (first-order) theory, it must be provable. Gödel’s incompleteness theorem says that for every sufficiently powerful theory, there exists statements that are true sometimes, and these can’t be provable.
The key word is “everywhere”.
Worse: If the chosen axioms are contradictory, then the theorem is effectively worthless.
And it is impossible to know whether axioms are consistent. You can only prove that they are not.
You can go deeper. To prove anything, including the consistency or inconsistency of a theory, you need to work within a different system of axioms, and assume that it is consistent, etc.
But that’s math. And its proof is math. And that proof is true everywhere forever.
I see philosophy as a place to make nonrigorous arguments. Eventually, other fields advance enough to do away with many philosophical arguments, like whether matter is infinitely divisible or whether the physical brain or some metaphysical spirit determines our actions.
Since this is a question that math hasn’t advanced enough to answer, we can have a philosophical argument about whether other fields will eventually advance enough to get rid of all philosophical arguments.
I see philosophy as a place to make nonrigorous arguments.
It’s the other way around: math is where you just ignore questions about what makes sense, what knowledge is, what truth is, what a proof is, how scientific consensus is reached, what the scientific method should be, and so on. Instead, you just handwave and assume it will all work out somehow.
Philosophy of mathematics is were these questions are treated rigorously.
Of course, serious mathematicians are often philosophers at the same time.
You’re just covering my third paragraph. Yes, everybody is a philosopher because we don’t have the tools to do away with philosophical arguments entirely yet.
Once a mathematical proof has been verified by computer, there is no arguing that it is wrong. The definitions and axioms directly lead to the proved result. There is no such thing as verifying a philosophical argument, so we develop tools to lift philosophical arguments into more rigorous systems. As I’ve shown earlier, and as another commenter added to with incompleteness, this is a common pattern in the history of philosophy.
I explicitly refer to your second paragraph.
Yes, you absolutely can argue computer verified proofs. They are very likely to be true (same as truth in biology or sociology: a social construct), but to be certain, you would need to solve the halting problem to proof the program and it’s compiler, which is impossible. Proofing incompleteness with computers isn’t relevant, because it wasn’t in question and it doesn’t do away with it’s epistemological implications.
It is not necessary to solve the halting problem to show that a particular lean proof is correct.
Lean runs on C++. C++ is a turning complete, compiled language. It and it’s compiler are subject to the halting problem.
I see philosophy as a place to make nonrigorous arguments.
Wait do you think Bertrand Russell and Alan Turing and Kurt Gödel weren’t making philosophical arguments?
They are clearly mathematical. Starting with definitions and axioms and deriving results from there using mathematical statements.
They all debated the question what being mathematical means there whole lives.
And we determined that the resulting incompleteness proofs are valid mathematical proofs whose logical correctness has been verified by computer. https://formalizedformallogic.github.io/Catalogue/Arithmetic/G___del___s-First-Incompleteness-Theorem/#goedel-1
They already knew that. You’re treading an old worn out logical positivist path, that was inspired by Wittgenstein who worked closely with Russell (both mathematicians and philosophers) and he later saw his error, rejected his positivist followers and explained how truth is not a correspondence to facts, rather meaning is derived from use in language. This applies to all languages, formal and informal, including math and logic.
Geology: laughs in multiple working hypotheses.
Climate science: It’s political
It really isn’t, but it got made to be by parties with vested interest in maintaining the oil and gas status quo.
Also, I realize this is probably a woooosh on my part.
All science is done by humans, and so biases are inevitable. Climate science, and a few other fields like medicine, have big enough vested interests that this needs to be accounted for. The physical scientists think they are safe, but one day a mathematician will discover Polymarket and then they’ll understand why climate science journals have a ‘conflict of interest’ section.
I’m mainly talking about the endless fights at the IPCC, where every word and sentence is a debate, but yes, it really isn’t.







