Funding Will Retrofit America's Existing Automotive Manufacturing Facilities, Expand & Retain High-Paying Auto Manufacturing Jobs, & Bolster Domestic Supply Chains, Part of the Investing in America Agenda to Create Not Just More Jobs But Good Jobs
While I agree with your sentiment, ~2/3rds of it according to the article isn’t being given to them but being available in loans. So the article should say $5.5 given away, and $10 billion made avaliable to pay back.
It’s more like investment, especially if it saves jobs. It can be a win-win. Companies have it easier time switching to EV manufacturing, which helps those companies and the environment. Manufacturing jobs are saved, both giving a living to a lot of people and helping communities and saving on benefit payments.
Could of course backfire or go to shit but investments like this from states seem like a very wise move imo.
I wouldn’t exactly be surprised if that happens but I’m not pessimistic enough to think it will hah. I’d imagine plenty of them will actually use the money for EV transition since that really is the direction things are going anyway.
It’s tying up capital that could be used elsewhere
I’m not sure that’s the case when you’re the government and can and do print money. Not every rule of finance applies to the entity that gives credibility to the currency in the first place. This is also why the concept of governmental debt is much less meaningful than the concept of individual debt.
This isn’t going to put a dent in climate change. It just isn’t. Wake me up when we change our stance on Nuclear since that is the only thing that will bolster renewable energy, which is a stop gap.
Furthermore, if the US government actually cared about fighting climate change they would invest in public transportation across the country, making those EV, since they A. Go shorter distances and B. Can carry more people, and they would also tax the shit out of the fossil fuel industry and manufacturing sector for their wonton pollution. It’s called internalizing the externalities and it needed to happen 10 years ago. We’re so fucked.
EV cars are meant to be powered with green energy, but you need a demand and a supply of that first or you’re just powering them with coal instead of oil.
Common myth. Coal makes up a small percentage of power in the US and Europe, and EVs powered by literally anything other than coal (including natural gas) are a net win for the climate over ICE vehicles.
For example, where I live, coal is 3% of the energy mix. Renewables (including hydro) are 42%, and nuclear is 9%.
You realize natural gas is a major contributor to the greenhouse effect, right? When people talk about going to green energy, only the fossil fuel industries pretend gas, or for that matter “clean coal,” is part of it.
And sure, it contributes less per kilowatt but the current concerns are that we’re either already over the threshold or won’t convert in time.
Removing fossil fuels from the grid? Reducing methane leakage in natural gas transmission? Developing domestic nuclear energy?
Maybe reducing car-dependency to make more efficient use of land and reduce the excessive amounts of taxpayer money being dumped to subsidize suburban development? Reducing inefficient flights between close cities (LAX-SFO, BOS-JFK-DCA)? Building more efficient buildings?
How about taking advantage of the already insanely efficient supply chains in China that allow for the development of sub-10k EVs? Helping those companies launch in the US and bring their expertise with them to accelerate the EV transition like China has?
Nah, let’s just give some more money to a few big EV manufacturers, I’m sure that’ll fix everything.
I really want to go electric, but the milage just isn’t there yet for me, and add in the charging time and new maintenance routines of swapping out those batteries. I just haven’t done enough research.
I don’t think there’s anything bad with giving the manufacturers money to switch their entire production facilities to electric, I just hope the government actually understands what those funds are being used for, unlike the money they gave our ISPs for infrastructure upgrades that went to waste.
The shells may be similar or the same but inside it would be like asking an apple orchard to change all their trees to oranges, and these funds will help expedite that.
Mileage seems fine to me. My gas car gets 260-280 maybe. Electric hits similar numbers.
Charge times are getting pretty low too. 20 minutes is becoming common to hear a new car doing 20-80%. That’s slower than gas but also I’ll only do that in a pinch. Most charging will be at home during the night.
The maintenance differences are a mixed bag though. I think a lot of EVs will be essentially disposed of once the batteries are showing age.
If the phone industry can reach us anything it is manufacturers will make it expensive to change or not make the batteries.
With all that said. Giving car companies money to help them mine rare metals in 3rd world countries, buy motors from China, assemble cars in Mexico and the US…idk how that makes financial sense.
And before anyone tells me the money is only for US plants…I’ll ask you to get real.
Man, I forget how shitty most peoples gas cars are sometimes. 260 miles from a full tank? That’s like 26mpg if you have a 10gallon tank, which is unlikely. My car is 15 years old and gets 40mpg, the hybrids in my household get 50+. How tf do you afford to drive getting mileage like that?
They’re working on improving range, it just isn’t there yet. Recharge overnight at home if you have a garage and it will likely never be a problem, in the vent you don’t have a place to charge slowly overnight or need a charge up on a trip then super chargers are being added all over the place daily, with government investment helping that as well. The maintenance routine is nothing, you need a new battery after nearly a decade, most people are getting a new car on that schedule, even if you plan to keep a car for decades you’ll have major repairs/replacements on a ice vehicle just as much if not more than electric.
Swapping ice to electric isn’t that difficult, ford even sells a crate electric motor and the tools/instructions to replace a gas engine with it in nearly any vehicle.
I fully agree that the government needs to set guidelines, controls, and a series of deep audits over several decades to ensure this money is being spent appropriately. Too often they just hand out cash to corps with no follow up to make sure it didn’t get spent on bonuses
My ice vehicle is nigh 2 decades old and besides wear parts my total investment on repairs is under $500. I’m still getting 30 mpg and although I’m not anti electric 15 years of no car payment is hard to beat.
I specifically excluded wear parts. At 300k miles I’ve replaced the tires about 4 times (they wear in the front but i move them to the back and they seem to last forever), the brakes & pads/drums & fluids twice although the second time was due to an error in installation on my part, belts once, headlamps once, spark plugs twice, and wiper blades bi-yearly. The alternator was my only non-wear repair and that came in around $300. Also note i do all my own work which i have no confidence for in an electric vehicle although i have to claim complete ignorance, some systems may be identical…
People really overstate the maintenance difference. It’s basically oil changes, which with synthetic oils are a 2-3 times per year thing depending on driving amounts. In electrics, you have a massive battery that’s going to dictate the value of the car at around the ten year mark, an ice car can be 7-10k, but electric is either 0 or pay 15k to have a car maybe worth that much or slightly more.
Are your tires and brake pads bald as fuck? Neither of those are cheap and have to be done every few years on ICE vehicles.
You are horribly underestimating battery lifespan. They are warrantied for 10 years. They average about 300k miles before dropping to 80% of their original charge. If you are fine with that, many are fine to go longer.
Tires wear the same on battery cars. Brakes are similar, though they were less due to regenerative braking, they also need to be bigger for the heavier weight.
Brakes wear way way less on EVs. You basically never use the brakes. Yes, the EV is heavier, but the regen is strong enough to slow down a car in all but the hardest of braking circumstances.
There are also timing belts, engine seals, coolant flush and fills (there’s a debate on whether that is worth it), transmission fluid, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs, and the lead acid battery. None of those are really a thing on EVs except the battery, but it’s much smaller and cheaper.
I would 2-3 times a year. And when I did it would be probably 3 charges in each direction, maybe 4 considering heat and a/c and several suitcases of weight. Enough that it wouldn’t be convenient, but that’s why we’ll keep an ICE van around for a while yet.
So you choose to inconvenience yourself 2-3 times a month because of something you only do 2-3 times a year? I get people who complain about range when they take road trips every month or live in very cold climates or have long commutes, but 2-3 times a year you can rent a car for the money you would save on gas and maintenance.
No idea what you’re talking about, but it’s our second vehicle. Primary is a Volt, so PHEV with the longest range. Most days we use no gas because I work from home and we only use the van a couple times a week when the kids need to be in different places at the same time.
Every time I go home to see my family, I’d have to stop halfway and sit at a charger for a bit. That’s why I own a hybrid now since electric doesn’t meet my needs and EVs are still so damned expensive
No airport in villages in the middle of nowhere my dude. Nearest airport I could get a flight into is an hour+ away and I’d have to drive at least 45 minutes to an airport small enough to fly into it. The only real feasible way to get there is drive since America refuses to build non-freight trains
Welp, sounds like you drive waaaaaaaaay more than the average. You live in the middle of the wilderness and frequently drive 500 miles each way. You’re an edge case so it’s gonna be a while before a solution is developed for you.
Fortunately, there’s few enough people in your position that if only the people who drive such an extraordinary amount use ICE vehicles, it will be a tiny contribution to climate change.
If your daily driving is <50 miles or so, a plug-in hybrid is a good option. That way you only burn gas on those long trips.
For much of the Midwest it’s like this, younger generations move to the cities but our parents/grandparents are out in the wilderness still. Yea I have to drive 300 miles to get to them, but that’s far from unique for millennials in the cities
Charging needs a huge overhaul and standardization at a minimum. Being able to charge at home helps, but that’s 50% or less of people can do it. The big problem is travel, there’s way to many different apps, broken chargers, and not actually fast chargers. Especially outside Tesla’s super chargers.
How often do you drive more than 100 miles away? People average 33 miles a day in the US and less than 1% of trips are over 100 miles. I would venture to guess almost never. Range is really not much of an issue for 99% of people. The only instances where charge time is an issue is those less than 1% of trips that are over 100 miles.
Maintenance is also not much of an issue. There is significantly less maintenance with an EV. For the battery, they generally hold their charge pretty damn well and most can go 300k miles before their full battery level degrades to 80% of the original range.
Not saying their are not issues because there absolutely are. But the issue with them is affordability and charging infrastructure reliability. At least in the US, we have a mediocre amount of fast charge stations but one of the main providers, Electrify America, has shit reliability. You would think VW, who was forced to build the Electrify America system, would actually want to make it profitable and also use it as PR showing that they have changed. But nope. They treat it like the red headed step child that they were forced to do and resent it. Fuck VW.
This right here. I had a phev that got 30 miles off the battery. If I worked a regular job that would be more than enough especially if I could trickle charge at work.
Maintenance you’re spot on and don’t forget to account for the intangibles like having to make that appointment for an oil change, etc and then having to either drop the car off or sit around while they do the work. Data coming from years of tesla, prius, etc is showing batteries lasting even longer and holding even more charge than the engineers predicted when designing and testing. I wouldn’t be surprised if we eventually see evs with 500k+ on the original battery and that’s not including some of the cells being repaired or swapped out.
As for charging. In most big cities there are chargers literally everywhere. I run my own livery and work uber, etc so I’m everywhere in my current state. I’m seeing apt complexes put in charging stations backed by Duke Power, I’m also seeing stores like Publix with free charging, simply plug and play versus having to activate it. Parking garages in Charlotte and Greensboro have them including at the airports, Greensboro also has at least one charging setup with a solar canopy for shade. WFU has a ton of free chargers around campus and nearby.
The charging infrastructure has a long way to go but we are miles ahead of where we were just 5 years ago. Those with a house or who can convince a hoa or complex can charge at home and always wake up to a full tank.
15 billion to private companies to retool and whatever. But then they sell us what they make. None of that goes back to the tax payers.
If you work for someone else in this country you are a joke it seems.
While I agree with your sentiment, ~2/3rds of it according to the article isn’t being given to them but being available in loans. So the article should say $5.5 given away, and $10 billion made avaliable to pay back.
Loans are costs too. It’s tying up capital that could be used elsewhere
It’s more like investment, especially if it saves jobs. It can be a win-win. Companies have it easier time switching to EV manufacturing, which helps those companies and the environment. Manufacturing jobs are saved, both giving a living to a lot of people and helping communities and saving on benefit payments.
Could of course backfire or go to shit but investments like this from states seem like a very wise move imo.
Take loan
Spend it on stock buybacks
Buy a senator or 50
Profit
I wouldn’t exactly be surprised if that happens but I’m not pessimistic enough to think it will hah. I’d imagine plenty of them will actually use the money for EV transition since that really is the direction things are going anyway.
I’m not sure that’s the case when you’re the government and can and do print money. Not every rule of finance applies to the entity that gives credibility to the currency in the first place. This is also why the concept of governmental debt is much less meaningful than the concept of individual debt.
The government is limited in monetary policy by inflation.
Of course, the Petrodollar doesn’t really have this problem, but it ends up exporting inflation around the world.
And yet when it comes time to talk about student loans suddenly that the government is broke.
Stopping climate change benefits everyone, including the taxpayers.
This isn’t going to put a dent in climate change. It just isn’t. Wake me up when we change our stance on Nuclear since that is the only thing that will bolster renewable energy, which is a stop gap.
Furthermore, if the US government actually cared about fighting climate change they would invest in public transportation across the country, making those EV, since they A. Go shorter distances and B. Can carry more people, and they would also tax the shit out of the fossil fuel industry and manufacturing sector for their wonton pollution. It’s called internalizing the externalities and it needed to happen 10 years ago. We’re so fucked.
deleted by creator
EV cars are meant to be powered with green energy, but you need a demand and a supply of that first or you’re just powering them with coal instead of oil.
Common myth. Coal makes up a small percentage of power in the US and Europe, and EVs powered by literally anything other than coal (including natural gas) are a net win for the climate over ICE vehicles.
For example, where I live, coal is 3% of the energy mix. Renewables (including hydro) are 42%, and nuclear is 9%.
What’s the other 46%?
38% natural gas and the rest “unspecified”, probably smaller energy generation projects that don’t fit neatly into other categories.
Edit: did some more research and “unspecified” means power imported from other states that didn’t document the source of the power.
You realize natural gas is a major contributor to the greenhouse effect, right? When people talk about going to green energy, only the fossil fuel industries pretend gas, or for that matter “clean coal,” is part of it.
And sure, it contributes less per kilowatt but the current concerns are that we’re either already over the threshold or won’t convert in time.
OH SHIT, SOMEONE CALL THE SCIENTISTS, THIS DUDE ON THE INTERNET HAS PROVED ALL OF YOU WRONG
Shill detected.
Stopping climate change by…
Removing fossil fuels from the grid? Reducing methane leakage in natural gas transmission? Developing domestic nuclear energy?
Maybe reducing car-dependency to make more efficient use of land and reduce the excessive amounts of taxpayer money being dumped to subsidize suburban development? Reducing inefficient flights between close cities (LAX-SFO, BOS-JFK-DCA)? Building more efficient buildings?
How about taking advantage of the already insanely efficient supply chains in China that allow for the development of sub-10k EVs? Helping those companies launch in the US and bring their expertise with them to accelerate the EV transition like China has?
Nah, let’s just give some more money to a few big EV manufacturers, I’m sure that’ll fix everything.
More than one thing can happen at the same time.
I’m sorry for shattering your world-view like this.
You realize how much money is going towards EV subsidies? They’re extremely inefficient uses of money.
Not nearly enough. We need to be subsidizing them to the level we subsidize oil.
The only way to stop climate change is to drastically reduce the human population.
Ok, you first.
We pay at least twice. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to be?
(/S)
“oh it’s expensive to make electric vehicles so we have to upsell them at 50k+, even though we get government support”
I really want to go electric, but the milage just isn’t there yet for me, and add in the charging time and new maintenance routines of swapping out those batteries. I just haven’t done enough research.
I don’t think there’s anything bad with giving the manufacturers money to switch their entire production facilities to electric, I just hope the government actually understands what those funds are being used for, unlike the money they gave our ISPs for infrastructure upgrades that went to waste.
The shells may be similar or the same but inside it would be like asking an apple orchard to change all their trees to oranges, and these funds will help expedite that.
I get 300 mile range and can recharge from 20-80% in under a half hour (a road trip lunch break).
It’s getting there quickly!
Mileage seems fine to me. My gas car gets 260-280 maybe. Electric hits similar numbers.
Charge times are getting pretty low too. 20 minutes is becoming common to hear a new car doing 20-80%. That’s slower than gas but also I’ll only do that in a pinch. Most charging will be at home during the night.
The maintenance differences are a mixed bag though. I think a lot of EVs will be essentially disposed of once the batteries are showing age.
If the phone industry can reach us anything it is manufacturers will make it expensive to change or not make the batteries.
With all that said. Giving car companies money to help them mine rare metals in 3rd world countries, buy motors from China, assemble cars in Mexico and the US…idk how that makes financial sense.
And before anyone tells me the money is only for US plants…I’ll ask you to get real.
Man, I forget how shitty most peoples gas cars are sometimes. 260 miles from a full tank? That’s like 26mpg if you have a 10gallon tank, which is unlikely. My car is 15 years old and gets 40mpg, the hybrids in my household get 50+. How tf do you afford to drive getting mileage like that?
13 gallon but lots of city driving. Also a 2015 so not very old.
I afford it by working from home lol.
They’re working on improving range, it just isn’t there yet. Recharge overnight at home if you have a garage and it will likely never be a problem, in the vent you don’t have a place to charge slowly overnight or need a charge up on a trip then super chargers are being added all over the place daily, with government investment helping that as well. The maintenance routine is nothing, you need a new battery after nearly a decade, most people are getting a new car on that schedule, even if you plan to keep a car for decades you’ll have major repairs/replacements on a ice vehicle just as much if not more than electric.
Swapping ice to electric isn’t that difficult, ford even sells a crate electric motor and the tools/instructions to replace a gas engine with it in nearly any vehicle.
I fully agree that the government needs to set guidelines, controls, and a series of deep audits over several decades to ensure this money is being spent appropriately. Too often they just hand out cash to corps with no follow up to make sure it didn’t get spent on bonuses
My ice vehicle is nigh 2 decades old and besides wear parts my total investment on repairs is under $500. I’m still getting 30 mpg and although I’m not anti electric 15 years of no car payment is hard to beat.
How is that possible? Tires alone will be that cost. Oil changes over 20 years? Even if you only changed oil annually for 20 years for $20 thats $400.
Not that you should ditch your car. I have a 12 year old with similar performance.
I specifically excluded wear parts. At 300k miles I’ve replaced the tires about 4 times (they wear in the front but i move them to the back and they seem to last forever), the brakes & pads/drums & fluids twice although the second time was due to an error in installation on my part, belts once, headlamps once, spark plugs twice, and wiper blades bi-yearly. The alternator was my only non-wear repair and that came in around $300. Also note i do all my own work which i have no confidence for in an electric vehicle although i have to claim complete ignorance, some systems may be identical…
People really overstate the maintenance difference. It’s basically oil changes, which with synthetic oils are a 2-3 times per year thing depending on driving amounts. In electrics, you have a massive battery that’s going to dictate the value of the car at around the ten year mark, an ice car can be 7-10k, but electric is either 0 or pay 15k to have a car maybe worth that much or slightly more.
Are your tires and brake pads bald as fuck? Neither of those are cheap and have to be done every few years on ICE vehicles.
You are horribly underestimating battery lifespan. They are warrantied for 10 years. They average about 300k miles before dropping to 80% of their original charge. If you are fine with that, many are fine to go longer.
Tires wear the same on battery cars. Brakes are similar, though they were less due to regenerative braking, they also need to be bigger for the heavier weight.
Significantly less for brakes. That regenerative braking does the vast majority of the work unless you are slamming on the brakes often.
Brakes wear way way less on EVs. You basically never use the brakes. Yes, the EV is heavier, but the regen is strong enough to slow down a car in all but the hardest of braking circumstances.
There are also timing belts, engine seals, coolant flush and fills (there’s a debate on whether that is worth it), transmission fluid, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs, and the lead acid battery. None of those are really a thing on EVs except the battery, but it’s much smaller and cheaper.
What do you mean the range isn’t there yet? How often do you travel 300+ miles between a charge?
I would 2-3 times a year. And when I did it would be probably 3 charges in each direction, maybe 4 considering heat and a/c and several suitcases of weight. Enough that it wouldn’t be convenient, but that’s why we’ll keep an ICE van around for a while yet.
So you choose to inconvenience yourself 2-3 times a month because of something you only do 2-3 times a year? I get people who complain about range when they take road trips every month or live in very cold climates or have long commutes, but 2-3 times a year you can rent a car for the money you would save on gas and maintenance.
No idea what you’re talking about, but it’s our second vehicle. Primary is a Volt, so PHEV with the longest range. Most days we use no gas because I work from home and we only use the van a couple times a week when the kids need to be in different places at the same time.
Why not use the Volt for the long trips? It uses gas.
Too small. I mean it holds an impressive amount, but I can’t take my wife, a 13 year old, and an 11 year old on a week vacation in it.
Every time I go home to see my family, I’d have to stop halfway and sit at a charger for a bit. That’s why I own a hybrid now since electric doesn’t meet my needs and EVs are still so damned expensive
Why don’t you just fly?
No airport in villages in the middle of nowhere my dude. Nearest airport I could get a flight into is an hour+ away and I’d have to drive at least 45 minutes to an airport small enough to fly into it. The only real feasible way to get there is drive since America refuses to build non-freight trains
Welp, sounds like you drive waaaaaaaaay more than the average. You live in the middle of the wilderness and frequently drive 500 miles each way. You’re an edge case so it’s gonna be a while before a solution is developed for you.
Fortunately, there’s few enough people in your position that if only the people who drive such an extraordinary amount use ICE vehicles, it will be a tiny contribution to climate change.
If your daily driving is <50 miles or so, a plug-in hybrid is a good option. That way you only burn gas on those long trips.
For much of the Midwest it’s like this, younger generations move to the cities but our parents/grandparents are out in the wilderness still. Yea I have to drive 300 miles to get to them, but that’s far from unique for millennials in the cities
Charging needs a huge overhaul and standardization at a minimum. Being able to charge at home helps, but that’s 50% or less of people can do it. The big problem is travel, there’s way to many different apps, broken chargers, and not actually fast chargers. Especially outside Tesla’s super chargers.
How often do you drive more than 100 miles away? People average 33 miles a day in the US and less than 1% of trips are over 100 miles. I would venture to guess almost never. Range is really not much of an issue for 99% of people. The only instances where charge time is an issue is those less than 1% of trips that are over 100 miles.
Maintenance is also not much of an issue. There is significantly less maintenance with an EV. For the battery, they generally hold their charge pretty damn well and most can go 300k miles before their full battery level degrades to 80% of the original range.
Not saying their are not issues because there absolutely are. But the issue with them is affordability and charging infrastructure reliability. At least in the US, we have a mediocre amount of fast charge stations but one of the main providers, Electrify America, has shit reliability. You would think VW, who was forced to build the Electrify America system, would actually want to make it profitable and also use it as PR showing that they have changed. But nope. They treat it like the red headed step child that they were forced to do and resent it. Fuck VW.
This right here. I had a phev that got 30 miles off the battery. If I worked a regular job that would be more than enough especially if I could trickle charge at work.
Maintenance you’re spot on and don’t forget to account for the intangibles like having to make that appointment for an oil change, etc and then having to either drop the car off or sit around while they do the work. Data coming from years of tesla, prius, etc is showing batteries lasting even longer and holding even more charge than the engineers predicted when designing and testing. I wouldn’t be surprised if we eventually see evs with 500k+ on the original battery and that’s not including some of the cells being repaired or swapped out.
As for charging. In most big cities there are chargers literally everywhere. I run my own livery and work uber, etc so I’m everywhere in my current state. I’m seeing apt complexes put in charging stations backed by Duke Power, I’m also seeing stores like Publix with free charging, simply plug and play versus having to activate it. Parking garages in Charlotte and Greensboro have them including at the airports, Greensboro also has at least one charging setup with a solar canopy for shade. WFU has a ton of free chargers around campus and nearby.
The charging infrastructure has a long way to go but we are miles ahead of where we were just 5 years ago. Those with a house or who can convince a hoa or complex can charge at home and always wake up to a full tank.