Anyone every convert to manual brakes?
I have a project car and basically will be replacing the whole system. I was looking at a manual brake setup. Is it comfortable for street and even some road track driving?
Older car doesn’t have abs, just looking at some options.
Yes I know I need a master/caliper/proportioning valve al configured to be compatible.
No booster is TERRIBLE on the street.
They suck all around.
There are so many easy power assist options no excuse not to.
I was part of a cheapo endurance race league. Plenty of teams would run manual steering for reliability reasons. No one ran manual brakes. Don’t know why you ever would.
It’s a lot more expensive and difficult to design and install manual brakes to a car than disconnecting a PS pump.
Why would you? I personally wouldn’t unless you’re driving something like an Atom or similar and even then, no. You’re going to have a much less enjoyable experience mashing on the brakes when you could still be on throttle.
by manual you mean no ABS and no break booster?
why would anyone want that?
To save a small amount of weight for autocross? Seems like a bad trade-off if you ask me.
Lol, you hardly save any weight converting your system to non-assisted braking. But you gain a lot of feel and way easier modulation. All the things you would look for racing.
Lol, you hardly save any weight converting your system to non-assisted braking. But you gain a lot of feel and way easier modulation. All the things you would look for racing.
To properly set up ABS for a modified car takes skill and knowledge. It’s also a system that adds complexity and weight.
Brake boosters made driving cars easier. Not everyone wants an easier-driving car, and advances in braking technology mean that you can have incredible brakes with no booster. That said, there were many cars with incredible brakes and no booster in the mid-1960s.
One thing I notice about crash videos online is how many cars with ABS lock up badly. The system requires cycling and frequent flushing to be effective; I had my ABS pump rebuilt and you wouldn’t believe its internal condition. It was seized and filled with corrosion and sediment.
By manual you mean no ABS, or no brake booster either?
Like manual as in no assist? Nah, not gonna happen unless your car weighs like 2k lbs or less.
Absolutely not true.
It’s gonna be hard in regular traffic but on the racetrack i can see why you would want stiff brakes.
This is my personal experience w/ my manual brake E36 that I track and drive on the street. I need around 80lbs of pedal pressure to threshold brake. For regular street driving, I don’t have any reasons to ever need more than 20lbs. So it’s very manageable, and I enjoy the precise feel that the brakes give me.
Well 80 lbs is not that much, so you have softer brakes in your bimmer. However this depends a lot from car to car, brake system to brake system and so on. So on some cars you will find that you need over 200 lbs of force for peak pressure and 50 for everyday use. It’s worth giving this manual brake thing a try tho.
My brake booster just went on my C4 Corvette, and while the car can stop, shit’s nerve-wracking. I couldn’t imagine doing it on purpose.
That is different, aftermarket masters provide more pressures. It is not the same as a failed brake booster setup, that sounds horrible.
Is this setup designed for boosted engine applications, where a source of good vacuum is not available?
If your engine won’t deliver sufficient vacuum for a brake booster to work reliably then yeah, go this route. But ‘power brakes’ were developed many decades ago as a safety thing, and still provide that extra measure of safety today.
Manual brakes are lighter, simpler, no parasitic draw, and provide more feeling/feedback than assisted. Many dedicated race cars use them for this reason, even when they could easily use a boosted setup.
They are not a safety feature, in fact they are a giant safety liability technically as engine failure now equates to a level of brake failure (eventually). They are a convenience feature.
I like having a powerful brake pedal as it makes driving way easier, and helps with quickly reacting in traffic, but manual brakes can be just fine.
I have a 1970 Toyota corona with unassisted drum brakes all around that I daily’d for years and could easily lock the tires up. It was a chore, especially on hills in Seattle traffic, but totally doable. No steering or brake assist, I could turn it off and still have full inputs. Basically a soapbox car on downhills if I wanted.
That’ s because your Corvette isn’t meant for manual braking. You’re telling me that something failed in your braking system and your brakes aren’t s effective? 🤯
You better start planning your stops about a block early. I drove an old Mustang with manual brakes once and hated it. It may have worked okay in the 30s when 45 mph was lightning fast, but it sounds like a quick way to cause a big wreck in modern traffic.
Not true. Your mustang just had shit brakes. I deleted ABS, and am running manual brakes in my car. I can easily threshold brake.
Probably wrong. First gen mustangs rarely had power assist. It was an option but majority didn’t have it, at least on the early models.
I’ve driven one and it did indeed feel scary AF. Like pressing wood together. I don’t know exactly the problem but I figured they can still threshold brake, it would just require a ton of pressure.
I have an unassisted all drum 1970 corona which initially was also scary, but once you realize how hard you can brake it becomes much easier, but still a chore.
Sounds like something was wrong with the system. I daily drive my 66 mustang with manual brakes and it has no problem in the worst of California traffic. It’s just the stock disks with EBC pads and drums in the rear and has no problem slowing down from 100+ mph. All with a pedal that is not much harder to press than a boosted brake pedal. Plus It’s way lighter since I also track and autocross my cat
I believe you, but how much heavier is a brake booster really? They’re pretty much just a big hollow air chamber with a diaphragm inside. I’ve never actually compared a vacuum assist booster master cylinder to a manual master cylinder before side by side but I can’t imagine the booster weighing more than like 5lbs. (Which yes on a very light car matters but for most cars it’s not something anyone is gonna notice)
Edit to caveat:
Hydraulic brake boosters (yes they exist) I’m sure weigh a lot more because of all the fluid inside.
I think you’re just used to it. When I drove a 65 it caught me off guard for sure. Since then I’ve daily’d unnasisted cars and gotten used to it, but it’s still a chore. An hour of stop and go traffic on hills feels like an eternity, and that’s a 2000lb car with fully rebuilt drums all around.
I wonder if having front drums was a factor. Only some of the first gens came with front discs (I assume you know).
Your drums are 100% a factor. Switching to disc and more aggressive pads will make your life a lot easier. Assuming your system is properly maintainedz
Your drums are 100% a factor. Switching to disc and more aggressive pads will make your life a lot easier. Assuming your system is properly maintainedz
I converted a 2nd gen Camaro to manual brakes. I used a master for a dodge dynasty. I have a pretty hot cam and I don’t make enough vacuum to run the vacuum booster. I changed the pedal ratio too.
I like way they feel, it’s very consistent, whereas the vacuum assist always felt mushy and vague. It’s significantly more effort to stop, especially to lock up the brakes. I overall like it.
This is something I have seen and heard this is input I am looking for. Thank you.
Ewwwww I hate hydroboost brakes. Mostly just because if you try and steer with your foot hard on the brakes the power steering starts to cut out a little (if they’re on the same system, which usually they are)
If you have power steering, going to hydroboost brakes is another option.
There is also the option of electromechanical brake booster (e.g. BOSCH iBooster, VW? eBKV, etc) as used on most EVs and many conversions. Another option is the less elegant hack job of using electric vacuum pump often seen on EV conversions that want to keep the original vacuum booster setup. Both solutions typically run on the low voltage system (~9-18V) and can be used in non-EV applications as well.
Only if it’s a really, really light car. Like Caterham light.
Nah. I’ve driven 3800 lb street cars with aftermarket manual brake systems, race car shit, no production parts. It’s excellent. The feel and modulation need to be experienced to understand. Pedal effort is much, much higher than power brakes, obviously. The real benefit is feel - you know exactly how much braking force you’re applying, so you can brake right at the threshold.
I also question why you would want to do this. The weight reduction is minimal, and you do not get any feel or precision advantages like you do with a manual steering rack.
you do not get any feel or precision advantages
For a street car that’s true. The real benefit is better feel and ease of modulation when you are trying to brake as hard as you can. That’s why most race cars run un-assisted brakes.
Not true. Boosters are laggy, and not linear. I can modulate my braking way better with manual brakes.
I genuinely just want to know what has inspired you to have an interest in doing this.
To answer your question: No, it is not comfortable for street driving. I don’t do track days, but I can’t imagine you’d want un-powered brakes there either.
I have a 72’ Oldsmobile Cutlass a few years back. It had brake drums all around and no brake booster. The care is a survivor and is original from 1972.
One of the first things I did was disk brakes up front and a brake booster.
I cannot stress enough how important it was to get this done.
*Stopping the car required distance. Standing hard on the brake pedal quickly meant lockups. So massaging the brakes was mandatory. It took a lot of effort and stopping times are LONG compared to modern cars.
*Traffic and roads are built to 2023 standards, NOT 1972 standards. 1972 brakes on 2023 roads is not a great thing.
*Every day will be leg day. It’s not just the stopping it is the staying stopped. Release brake pressure and the car will move. Applying lots of pressure all the time gets old.
*After the brake improvements stopping the Olds became more like stopping in a modern car. I felt safer and the car feels better.
Its a great upgrade, but there was something going on with those cutlass brakes if they were like you describe. A 4 wheel drum car is pretty much fine around town, can get a little iffy in the rain, and when you get the brakes hot, but on dry pavement, in normal conditions you shouldn’t notice much of a difference.