Due to a (now former) admin of the instance anarchist.nexus calling for a member of our team, as well as anyone else they call a zionist, to be murdered, the instance has been defederated.
We’re currently discussing how we will proceed with this situation and whether it will affect lemmy.dbzer0.com, which is mostly run by the same admin team, notably excluding the person who used to be on the anarchist.nexus admin team.
We will share further updates once we have them.
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Honestly, with comments in this thread being removed by mods and the delays and prevarifications over this defederation, I’m starting to think LW is run by children.
Do better.
There’s a lot to unpack here. For the sake of convenience, I’m going to assume that what Luminous said was a legitimate call for violence and was therefore not complying with the Lemmy.world code of conduct.
If we assume that, then the Lemmy.world terms say that they can:
- remove the content and ask a user not to do it again, and/or,
- (if it’s a second time) suspend the account temporarily, and/or,
- restrict or banish the community, and/or,
- remove all of that user’s content, and/or,
- permanently ban the user.
I have no idea how many of those had already happened, I’m going to assume for convenience again that some of it did. The site bylaws also say that for community bans and content removal:
- Bans “should only be used as a last resort for hostile users OR for users that are known bad faith actors.”
- “Any community user ban CAN and SHOULD have a clearly documented reason pointing to explicit rules broken.”
- “any content that they DO remove, they should ideally be able to cite the community rules that were broken.”
I note that all of Luminous’ content was removed, and while the “Our Rights” section says this can happen, it somewhat contrasts with the guidelines for documenting content removal. But there’s still nothing in any of this that suggests defederating from the entire instance is warranted or an appropriate course of action. If community bans are considered a last resort, then it seems logical that defederating has at the bare minimum the same threshold of seriousness.
Let’s assume for convenience again that the comments from one admin can be sufficient cause for defederation, and its absence from the ToS is an oversight. If that’s the case, then the bylaws and prior defederation examples (eg. lemmygrad) suggest that this should be adequately explained. But that didn’t happen, and it’s not clear whether the other admins were involved in the decision.
Even if all of the above reactions to Luminous’ comment were justified and proper, the actions afterwards by lemmy.world admins / mods don’t inspire my confidence. I can see there has been:
- This refederation announcement, only posted as a regular post (I found it yesterday by chance). It only briefly outlines the events leading up to this.
- One user in this thread has been temporarily community banned for “Spam, harassment” after three removed posts in the thread, which doesn’t seem like spam quantity. Two of those posts cite the reason “this isn’t about jordanlund”, yet further down in the thread, an admin is litigating the jordanlund situation. Other far more off topic content is in this thread, so if that is a concern, it’s not clear why the other comments remain.
- A few users have been permanently(?) banned from the instance with the reasons “troll” or “calling FHF members nazis”. It’s unclear whether the removed comments or user histories rose to the level of needing an instance ban.
- Multiple other users have been temporarily banned from this community for reasons spanning from “uncivil” to “disinformation”, to “sealioning and harassment”. Many of the removed comments from those users did not seem to meet those descriptions either.
- Many other removed comments from non-banned users, with varying levels of clear rules broken.
- One moderator indicating the defederation mostly only targets several “loud” people and the instance size is only 165 people, which undercuts both the reasoning for why defederation was necessary and the justification for including 150 users as collateral (along with anyone who may have wanted to interact with them). Several people can be dealt with using individual bans, and that quantity are unlikely to be negatively impacting lemmy.world at scale.
- No response from the only person further up the leadership ladder for whether / how Lemmy.world admin are evaluating the original decisions, governance process for defederation, or the bus factor and risks of one person being site admin and top moderator and infra simultaneously. Not even a “I’m alive and considering the issue” acknowledgement, unless done behind the cover of the lwadmin account.
- Lots of little bits of engagement otherwise from Lemmy.world admin or mods with various tangents in the thread.
Very little here seems to align with the by laws and expectations for proportionate community moderator conduct.
The situation looks to me like it has been poorly handled, and there is no sign of any compromise or admission that any of the events that up to now could have been handled differently, or a process for how it might be handled in the future. I just don’t see much in the way of community building or good will, but I do see the same patterns that have inspired other lemmy.world drama over the years.
If one admin’s comments or actions aren’t sufficient for justifying defederation, then it’s unclear why dbzer0 is being considered for defederation at all. But, if one admin’s comments or actions are sufficient justification, then the situation in this thread opens the door for other instances to defederate from Lemmy.world.
Hey there, Kaplan.
So, this is quite clearly now just a witch hunt by you.
For anyone else who is curious, this is what happened.
A user by the name of Luminous was an admin on Anarchist.nexus. They banned MrKaplan from a community for posting zionist apologia. Luminous also had ‘Kill all Zionists’ as their display name. MrKaplan took this as a personal death threat. Instead of speaking with any other admin from Anarchist.nexus and reporting the behavior, MrKaplan instantly defederated from Anarchist.nexus.
In the next couple of days, Kaplan messaged other users/admins of Lemmy about the defederation and suggested defederation to others as well.
It was then posted about in the Piefed matrix channel. This led to PugJesus, someone who I abhor, actually saying something I agree with.
The conversation moves elsewhere. One bit of input that stands out is this. It will become important in a second.
In basically every situation, Kaplan is told that they’re wrong or overreacting but Kaplan cannot see past the ‘death threat’ to their own mistake.
So, I messaged Kaplan. Conversation goes on and one thing is made clear
Kaplan never spoke with anyone and ran all of this off of an assumption. There was inconsistencies in how the different people felt because they were different people and not one organism. What was individuality instead came off as obliviousness and Kaplan took it personaly. See what I mean by it became important? Kaplan is talking about a ‘lack of moderation’ over something that Kaplan literally never reported or talked to anyone about and instead just made assumptions over.
@Ruud@lemmy.world, this is what you’re backing. You went out of your way to make an instance that wasn’t going to be reddit and you went ahead and re-created Spez, an admin who personally takes out their own feelings on anyone that they don’t like and is trying to control the narrative of the entirety of the fediverse.
Friendly reminder to everyone. Check back a couple of months ago on this community and look at the post about JordanLund. A moderator who was openly lying to the admins in public but the admins took weeks to decide to do literally nothing. But a single user on another instance meant that MrKaplan was able to defederate it all.
This behavior from Kaplan is, quite literally, the reason that I left lemmy.world.
Don’t believe me? Here’s the last message I sent Kaplan during the Jordan garbage.
Funny. Jordan requires a ton of deliberation, reasons in the TOS, and you’re all ‘working on it’ but a single user says something you don’t like so instant defederation?
Edit: Quick note but every other post on this community has been featured. This one isn’t. So you’re making an announcement but you’re not really announcing it. Any response to this, Kaplan?
Edit 2: Kaplan is just blatantly lying. As demonstrated above, Kaplan has literally zero evidence of this claim other than things “feeling odd”.
Edit 3: Serinus joined the thread 15 minutes ago and now a number of my comments are being removed for ‘misinformation’ despite the comment above proving them to be categorically true.
We are still discussing this matter, but there is currently no point in keeping anarchist.nexus defederated while lemmy.dbzer0.com is federated
This honestly reads like a threat of escalation more than anything else
What action will be taken against rogue admins on world?
Have you considered raising this with the admin team before defederating?? Or with your userbase?? I don’t wanna hear shit about hexbear is aUtHoRiTaRiAaAaAn when they have a vote before defederation instead of just throwing a tantrum and reflexively defederating a whole-ass instance because of personal drama between two admins.
From what I saw, the ‘call to murder’ was someone having kill all zionists in their username, and that only makes sense as a real call to violence if we’re supposed to take everyone’s username seriously and literally. That would be a very weird world to be in, as then we’d have to accept that we’re reading posts written by Star Trek characters come to life, inanimate objects, and various bodily fluids. Without evidence of something worth taking more seriously, at best this looks like the admin team doing something silly, and obviously certain groups of Lemmy users will interpret it less charitably and as the LW admin team being pro-genocide. Neither is a good look.
My handle is serious. Deadly serious.
Same dude.
Hello 😏
I’m sure you’ll have someone to satisfy your request someday.
I mean, isn’t that what conservatives always do? Every horrible remark they make can always be taken back as “just a joke”. It’s like floating a weather balloon to gauge public reaction.
Surprise surprise Lemmy isn’t entirely different from Reddit in that:
- It kills a community over the name of one user (yes I’m aware it was an admin)
- Said admin had beef with this user, which they conveniently left out in their post description
- It’s got shameless hypocrisy too where calls to death from zionism is acceptable but not the other way around
For the record, I am not for calling anyone’s death as that’s not my thing, but have some consistency hypocrites. Smh.
The site structure can only do so much when what you hate is certain users. The idea of lemmy is that other instances can be free from the unjust actions of users on one instance such as this one-- which is a success.
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a lot of lemmings like to dog whistle by saying they would not shed a tear if all zionists or anyone not protesting against them were killed
because they are cowards
I think speech on the issue of killing zionists is more serious than Star Trek and cum farts, because there’s a war actively going on. And killing Zionist civilians during a war is starting to sound pretty war-crimey. We should only be killing Zionist soldiers.
I think your point about a war going on is spot on, but backwards.
While the project of zionism is engaged in genocide, kill all zionists is pretty clearly a call for resisting and punishing genocide.
Just as during a deeply homophobic regime, be gay do crime is clearly understood as a call to resist our illegitimate system.
If someone, in the course of WWII, said “kill all Nazis”, would you feel the same?
Keeping in mind Nazism, like Zionism, is a political identity one chooses…
And they are closely related ideologies, targeting their opposition and critics
I don’t mind either statement on it’s own. But it does become problematic once people go around baselessly accusing others of being Nazis/Zionists, which is something that is rampant on lemmy, especially dbzer0 and its offshoots.
Schindler, the list guy, was a Nazi. And he saved a thousand Jewish people from the Nazis. I don’t think Schindler ought have been killed. Plus there’s Operation Paperclip. They recruited Nazi scientists to work at NASA and help get a man on the moon. I’m not educated enough to understand the full ramifications of Paperclip, but it seems like a decent idea.
But all of that is kinda besides the point, because Netanyahu has a very different propaganda strategy to Hitler. A more sophisticated one. Netanyahu wants there to be extremists who would see him dead. He funded Hamas during the last Gazan election, because of their violent rhetoric. There is serious evidence that he and the government knew about October 7 and deliberately allowed it to happen by suspending the border patrols during the crucial hours. He’s got a plan.
Israel thrives on the violent rhetoric of its opponents, because they want to call us terrorists. That is why we must conduct ourselves with the appropriate restraint to beat these allegations. Luminous’ rhetoric sounds terrorist-y. They’re advocating for the killing of civilians. That’s terrorism. We need to be better than that, or we can’t win the propaganda war and gather allies.
I mean this pretty much avoids the question by invoking the idea that because there was some Nazis you approve of, something something… I fail to see the relevance. It sure sounds like apologetics.
You then proceed to moralize about the efficacy of the critique the stament is making, but you didn’t actually address the question.
Your argument is basically “Don’t be critical of Zionists or Israelis, because that plays into their five d chess”.
Now, put yourself in the position of the period immediately before WWII, and in your response, replace the word Israel with the word Nazi Germany.
Would you still agree with your statement? Are you comfortable with history remembering you did these kinds of apologetics on behalf of the worst criminals, the most abhorrent people of the time?
Okay, I’ll switch to talking about the big man himself.
It is a wonderful thing that Hitler killed himself. It was a PR blessing for the allies, because it prevented him from becoming a martyr. If Hitler had not killed himself, I do not think he should have been given the death penalty. I am against killing Hitler unless he was an active combatant. I think Hitler should have been given life in prison, because I am against the death penalty in all circumstances. And it would have made him a martyr.
Likewise, Netanyahu should not be killed. He should be given a fair trial, which I believe should reach a verdict of life in prison. I don’t want Netanyahu martyred, I don’t want to spend tons of money on his death row, I just want to put him in a room where he can’t hurt anyone until he dies of old age.
I’m not a Nazi apologist I just think hitler shouldn’t have been killed.
Actually insane.
If you can’t help but see a consistent position against the death penalty as “Nazi apologia”, that’s your problem.
The Nazis got some of their best inspiration from America’s treatment of black people. I don’t exactly think America is a shining beacon of responsibility, especially in the 1940s. I don’t think America should have a death penalty, because I don’t trust the American government to wield that power responsibly. If political enemies like Hitler can be executed, then political enemies like Edward Snowden are at risk too.
As an anarchist, I want to limit the power of the state because I don’t trust anyone with that much power. And I especially don’t trust the likes of Harry Truman and Richard Nixon.
That is why we must conduct ourselves with the appropriate restraint to beat these allegations.
On this point and this point alone I reply: No. Do not let the enemy define the terms of the battle. In the US, the Democrats need to not placate the fascists. Again, I am solely discussing the words I quoted, not the larger topic of zionists or the lemmy thing.
… I’m pretty sure both Democrats and Republicans are fascists. The Democrats want to exploit and enslave weaker nations for the benefit of the “lower” class and the Republicans want the spoils of war to go to the middle class. Both funnel resources to the upper class, so in that regard they aren’t different.
I don’t really have an opinion about this one way or the other, but it’s two sides of the same coin. Despite their different rhetoric, they are ultimately one and the same. I’ve just accepted the fact that I am probably fascist. Honesty is necessary for change.
… I’m pretty sure both Democrats and Republicans are fascists.
two sides of the same coin.
No. Very much no.
But first of all, where you are right is that the oligarchs are the true root of the problem in the US; or at least, the worst problem we have. And they do corrupt the entire system, yes.
However, the bits I’ve quoted above are very much not the case. I won’t do it here, but I have many many times pulled up voting records for what each side has actually voted for.
I can’t say there’s not times when they coordinate to make something almost pass, but I definitely can say that there are very VERY clear differences.
For one recent example close to my home here in Virginia: republicans have abused gerrymandering far longer and far worse than Democrats. Dems have tried to pass legislation to stop it. Btu recently states like Texas gerrymandered in an attempt to help Republicans gain more seats.
So in reply, Virginia did the same. MUH BOTH SIDES!!! But… one critical difference. In Virginia, we VOTED. And it nearly failed. So even when the Dems are fighting back in an attempt to force Republicans to eventually support an end to gerrymandering by gerrymandering themselves, they still put it up to a vote.
The two parties are not the same.
Alas, the Dems are, as a whole, pretty centre-right, but the Republicans are extreme right fascists.
So if you’re any sort of progressive, people like AOC and Bernie are rare lights in a very very dark place. But while there are shadows in the Democrat party, the Republicans are down the street, around the corner, at the back of a very very deep cave.
All that said, think what you wish to think. But really, they are not the same. But we do have very very very deep problems that do affect both parties. Just not equally.
I’m against the death penalty and I’m against targeting civilians during a war. Those aren’t the enemy’s terms of battle, those are My beliefs and values.
You’re replying out of the scope of my quote and reply. Which is your right, but means I have no further reply at this time.
I love it when you fascist lovers out yourself like this.
Ikr? Just for starters, using Operation Paperclip as an example of something good and positive to back up your point, when supposedly your reasoning for defederation is based on the concept of the Nazi bar? That is some seriously wild pro-fash hypocrisy.
If someone said “Murder all Martians. Rimu is a martian.” and then we spend hours debating whether it’s ok to kill martians or not then that would be a waste of time. Because I am not a martian. Obviously there are situations where murdering Martians can be justified - the problem is someone calling for me to be killed based on made-up bullshit. Let’s talk about that.
I accused the “FHF team members of being zionists while simultaneously calling for zionists to be murdered”. but if that were true, then why has MrKaplan not also defederated from lemmy.ml, despite many of their users being just as vocal as I am ?
Oof, this is the part that keeps coming back to haunt every instance across the Threadiverse. The question they raised is: why defederate hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml while giving a free pass to lemmy.ml?
There are reasons, though nuance and subtlety seem mostly absent from that YPTB post. When I was growing up, I was taught that my rights ended where someone else’s began, i.e. I can do anything I please, but so too can everyone else. Thus e.g. AN can do whatever it wants, yet as a result if other instances choose to defederate from it as a result, then that is their choice. Why one instance should be free to call for murder while another instance should NOT be free to block that kind of talk looks to me to be pure incel behavior: “my idea of a ‘compromise’ is when the other side does as I say”. aka trolling, or leftist MAGA.
The Threadiverse continues to fracture along the lines of “free speech” instances, which constantly call for the rights of other instances to be curtailed, and instances that enjoy moderating only themselves internally, for the sake of their users happiness since some of us actually are not terminally online and always, Always, ALWAYS looking for a fight.
Lol, The FAF takes weeks of deliberation, and a public vote to defederate feddit.org and we still get shit about being “authoritarians” or “manipulative”. L.W. just YOLO defederated an anarchist instance on the flimsiest excuse and…crickets.
This is honestly pathetic. If the admins want to have an argument at least leave everyone else out of it. Defederation should be an absolute last resort not your first port of call when someone disagrees with you
Zionism is bad tho
Zionism is bad, Ethnonationalism is bad, Murder is bad, War crimes are bad, Genocide is bad, Racism is bad
Many of the people involved in this conversation are toxic assholes who need to touch grass.
Only reasonable take in this entire thread.
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Honestly a great move from the .world admins to prevent themselves from becoming too big, and I applaud their effort to piss everyone off and make them leave for more community oriented instances lmao
Lemmy.world not beating the allegations of harboring Zionists
Have you considered not being Zionists
We’re currently discussing how we will proceed with this situation
Block the mod on your personal list, don’t defederate?
wow. how about banning zionists instead?
