https://lemmy.world/post/16146433
Here’s actual context for anyone who wants it.
The US president is expected to sign the order as early as Tuesday to seal the border with Mexico to migrants when numbers of asylum claimants rise above a daily threshold of 2,500.
But sure, both sides the same, if this time we let fascism win it will totally make us into a left-wing paradise, etc etc etc.
I’m voting Biden out of harm reduction because I don’t have the stones to walk away and be complicit in additional short term suffering/scapegoating/cruelty, but Biden just like Trump ultimately serves our owner class, and we need to collapse to have any hope of anything but living in this dystopic oligarchy.
The neoliberals and the fascists alike work to maintain the power of our owner class. We’re only permitted a vote on how to address the social issue symptoms of our rigged economic system. I’d rather we not address those symptoms with scapegoating and fear, so Biden it is.
Don’t mistake that vote for even beginning to solve anything though. This country is died under Reagan. Something new will eventually have to take its place for any gains to be made at this point, this corpse is too far captured, it has been reformed to maintain class occupation and maximum exploitation under both (D) and ® representatives, both legally bribed and fully owned when it comes to legislating and protecting the long con that is our market capitalist economic system.
When capitalist induced, reckless growth/metastasis caused climate change is thinning our numbers due to hunger/thirst/deadly weather, maybe then, far too late, we will finally unite against our common enemy in their towers, golf clubs, and guard gated communities.
Don’t mistake that vote for even beginning to solve anything though. This country is died under Reagan. Something new will eventually have to take its place for any gains to be made at this point, this corpse is too far captured, it has been reformed to maintain class occupation and maximum exploitation under both (D) and ® representatives, both legally bribed and owned.
I agree that voting is the minimum and will not solve any issues on its own, but we’ve been in worse spots regarding corruption, and still came out capable of reform. The fight isn’t over, and there’s more than a corpse left to fight over. The country hasn’t died under Reagan unless we’re willing to let it die.
Campaign finance reform has been a rallying cry of the progressive wing of the Dem Party as soon as Citizens United happened. We, as a society, must relearn the value of strikes and disruptive protests to succeed, but I believe do have a future still.
Aww yes, I remember having hope.
Vote Biden so elections keep happening and make change at your local level. Voting in the interest of the people in local races where your vote really makes a difference. That’s the only peaceful way to improve I know of.
Giving up hope is what the owner class wants.
I think the owner class has come to use false hope as yet another tool to keep us docile. Change can come… just keep supporting one of these 2 parties we pay very well, and be so patient you’ll die hoping!
Lots of little ways to manipulate hope. We love to crow about our right to protest, but the only “protest” allowed is non-disruptive with a permit out of eyeline of those your protesting in a designated protest zone so as not to… Gasp… disrupt commerce. That kind of protest is masturbation. Any real protest and we’d be killed just like all those places that don’t allow faux protest or real protest.
Why fight those you lord over, when you can manipulate them into fighting one another, and even profit off their infighting?
Lots of little ways to manipulate hope. We love to crow about our right to protest, but the only “protest” allowed is non-disruptive with a permit out of eyeline of those your protesting in a designated protest zone so as not to… Gasp… disrupt commerce. That kind of protest is masturbation.
That kind of protest is essential. Just because it’s not the only form of protest that should be pursued doesn’t mean it’s worthless, or not a major part of the solution. Disruptive protests are an escalation that should be used carefully.
In any behavior, you should ask yourself how you would like the government to act if it was your opposition doing the same. It’s my view that it is necessary for the government to take steps to disband disruptive protests, but that it is also morally correct to endure in making disruptive protests in the case (and insofar) you find it strengthens a just movement, despite government repression.
Any real protest and we’d be killed just like all those places that don’t allow faux protest or real protest.
We are a very long way away from ‘all those places’. Don’t confuse being bad with being equally bad.
I remember having hope, then being pessimistic, then learning to have hope again because there is no action without hope, and no progress without action.
Gotta hold onto something. Some of it is just a desire to believe in a better future, but some of it is rooted in a fascination with history. Everyone always thinks they’re living in the last days - if not in religious terms, in political ones. Every polity is on the cusp of dissolution in every era - but actual dissolution is comparatively rare.
We survived the early crises of 1790s, the oligarchic 1800s and 1810s, the struggle for democracy* (BIG asterisk) and against regionalism in the 1820s and 1830s, the anti-immigrant fevers of the 1840s and 1850s, the literal civil war and a Southern sympathizer in the role as president during the 1860s, the corruption and heightened partisan activity of the 1870s, the robber barons of the 1880s and 1890s, the labor upheavals of the 1900s, the free market fetishism of the 1920s, the depression and rise of fascism in the 1930s, WW2 in the 40s, the Civil Rights movement in the 50s and 60s, the Christofascist threat starting in the 80s, the militia movements of the 90s, the creeping security state of the 2000s and 2010s…
All great upheavals with the potential to tear the country apart, for better or worse (most of them with considerable overlap). All of them we’ve survived. And many countries alive today have similar stories.
It’s up to us, the Americans of our age, to ensure that the 2020s are remembered as a time of struggle against entrenched elites and the pushback inherent to that.
Well said. I hope time proves you correct, and will be there to support such efforts in the event they address the root problem: greed elevated to and conflated with virtue.
Yeah. It’s an ugly fight, and I don’t mean to say that we’re going to be linking arms with prominent Dems (at least not of the kind that predominates now) and sing-songing our way to socialism. But I think there’s hope in this country yet. I don’t think it’s dead.
And I think Biden, an unimaginative career politician concerned with his ‘legacy’, is much less of an obstacle to that hope than fascism.
Hear, hear!
When I think of the political changes in most of those eras, I think of a lot of fighting and bloodshed. I’m not here to tell you who to vote for or even whether you should vote at all, but what I will say is that fascism/not-fascism is never going to be decided at the ballot-box. It is decided in the streets, on the campuses, and in the workplaces. Vote if that’s what you want to do, but for fuck’s sake do not think that this election determines whether the US crosses the fascism binary.
but what I will say is that fascism/not-fascism is never going to be decided at the ballot-box.
I will tell you that fascism/not-fascism is very often decided at the ballot-box. Most fascists win some elections before taking power totally. The thing is that “Fascism vs. not-fascism” is a pretty fucking miserable thing to have to decide at the ballot-box, even if the correct choice is obvious - we must work elsewhere than the ballot box so that the next election we have is “Not-fascism vs. Not-fascism”
Vote if that’s what you want to do, but for fuck’s sake do not think that this election determines whether the US crosses the fascism binary.
Fucking what.
I’m saying the elections follow, they don’t lead. If you’re in a political environment where roughly half the electorate is clamoring for naked fascism, you’ve already been boiling the proverbial frog for awhile. Electing the “lesser fascist” is not going to change the zeitgeist. Sorry if I was too obtuse previously, but we already in fascism. Yes, things can (and will) get worse, but this election will have minimal relative effect on that.
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the effect is the same, because part of the executive order doesn’t allow for people that crossed the border illegally to apply for asylum at all and generally makes it more difficult to apply for asylum in the first place. Biden doesn’t deserve defending when he makes the same moves as his fascist competitor.
Which is literally instantly.
Maybe we should address the reasons why that is.
Because the Blue MAGA that will defend anything God emperor Biden does. The second Biden implements Republican policies, those are actually the real important policies.
And Biden hopes to snatch a few Republican voters, knowing he can count on his rock following of cultists that will vote on him no matter what. Genocide? Let’s go Genocide Joe!. Violating the law to block immigration? Bouldering with Biden!
I love how you completely ignored the actual reasons in favor of just blaming it all on Biden. You’re a joke.
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Oh look: another Lemmy edge lord that can’t engage with a single topic without having to resort to name calling and labels.
Yeah totally. Nothing edgier than calling a racist immigration policy racist
Yeah don’t bother engaging with the topic, or refuting the argument, or providing an analysis of how the policy can be improved, or a rebuttal, or a comparison to the previous policy or anything that shows us you understand why this is going into effect…oh wait, you can’t. That would require activating more than one brain cell. It’s probably easier to just call people racists. Let’s go with that.
Oh look, the person that spends an unhealthy amount of time making racist boomer facebook memes justifying genocide is
Y’know, actually, since this is a ‘correction’, I have to admit I’m curious - what meme do you think I posted which justified genocide?
which btw your entire post history is genocide apologia, don’t kid yourself.
Really reaching, because you know you have nothing. Try again some other time. :)
Oh look, Lemmy’s favorite genocide supporter is back
Wow, I’m Lemmy’s favorite, and I’m a genocide supporter? Here I learned two new things about myself
Oh look, the person that spends an unhealthy amount of time making racist boomer facebook memes justifying genocide is
Wow, I spend time making memes, and they’re racist boomer facebook memes justifying genocide? Here I learned two MORE new things about myself.
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What is the progressive policy on immigration? I’ve heard all the reasons why Republican plans are racist and xenophobic and all that but not much substance on what should be in place instead. It seems to me to be the left’s version of a GOP Healthcare plan. “We have one and it’s totally great but it won’t be ready until next week.”
Does someone want to enlighten me?
The progressive policy on immigration has been repeated for about a decade and a half now - path to citizenship for those who’ve grown up in the US, looser immigration restrictions, higher quotas, more judges to address backlog, etc. There have been a few attempts at implementation but all of them were ultimately shut down by Republican intransigence.
Today’s executive order doesn’t conflict with any of those things.
In fact, all it does it put a temporary limit on extralegal border-crossing asylum claims to 2,500 people per day. So it does not, in fact, “shut down” asylum claims, nor does it increase deportations of people who have been living here.
President Joe Biden on Tuesday signed an executive order that will temporarily shut down asylum requests once the average number of daily encounters tops 2,500 between official ports of entry
Is the United States supposed to take in an unlimited number of unauthorized border-crossers every day?
Is that the way it’s going to go down? The right falsely accuses the left of being for “open borders”, and the left’s response is to actually just take the bait and make that their stance?
Because if that’s the new progressive litmus test (it’s hard to keep up since there seems to be a new one every day) then we have well and truly jumped the shark. Even progressive hero FDR turned away tens of thousands of Jewish Holocaust refugees:
In 1933, and again in 1937, the Roosevelt administration modified the “likely to become a public charge” restriction, but kept it in place. German Jews attempting to immigrate to the United States in the 1930s were still often rejected for economic reasons.
As a result of these legal and administrative obstacles to immigration, less than 20% of the German quota was filled during FDR’s first term. The Roosevelt administration focused on domestic problems, chiefly combatting the Great Depression. Though Americans certainly had information about the threat Nazism posed to German Jews, few could have imagined the persecution would escalate to mass murder. FDR did not take significant action to aid German Jews, either by ordering a diplomatic protest or by publicly supporting increased immigration.
Some people on this website who claim to be “on the left” are now just inventing shit to be mad at Biden for, I guess either because they are really sockpuppet Trump supporters trying to incite division amongst Democrats, or maybe because they simply don’t give a fuck if fascism takes over the US.
Some people on this website who claim to be “on the left” are now just inventing shit to be mad at Biden for, I guess either because they are really sockpuppet Trump supporters trying to incite division amongst Democrats, or maybe because they simply don’t give a fuck if fascism takes over the US.
The last one. Many are under the delusion that if fascism wins, it’ll make the left suddenly REALLY popular.
That’s like wanting a zombie apocalypse because then your neighbors might overlook your weird personality and hang out with you since you know how to crack zombie heads and start a fire.
Also, the number of asylum seekers arriving at the borders are making the path to residency and citizenship slower for the people already in the US. Processes that usually took a week are now on hold for 4 months or more because a lot of resources are used for the asylum seekers (yes, government should hire more people)
Is the United States supposed to take in an unlimited number of unauthorized border-crossers every day?
yes.
Is that the way it’s going to go down? The right falsely accuses the left of being for “open borders”, and the left’s response is to actually just take the bait and make that their stance?
no borders is and has been the leftists stance.
In 1933, and again in 1937, the Roosevelt administration modified the “likely to become a public charge” restriction, but kept it in place. German Jews attempting to immigrate to the United States in the 1930s were still often rejected for economic reasons. As a result of these legal and administrative obstacles to immigration, less than 20% of the German quota was filled during FDR’s first term. The Roosevelt administration focused on domestic problems, chiefly combatting the Great Depression. Though Americans certainly had information about the threat Nazism posed to German Jews, few could have imagined the persecution would escalate to mass murder. FDR did not take significant action to aid German Jews, either by ordering a diplomatic protest or by publicly supporting increased immigration.damn, sure sounds like letting people in who need help could have saved an awful lot of folk
So there are three urgent problems with immigration in this country, two of which root back to a sudden wild spike upwards in the number of people coming into the country which wasn’t matched by a corresponding spike in the resources for the agencies that deal with them:
- The agency which runs the border patrol and immigration is made of oppressive and racist people
- There’s a huge backlog of asylum / deportation cases which means people stay in custody in racist and oppressive overcrowded prisons (see point #1)
- We’re rate limiting the people coming into the country (see point #2), which means a lot of asylum seekers who are trying to do it legally wind up waiting for months (maybe years now, IDK) on the other side of the Mexican border, basically just living in a big, dangerous, squalid, crime-ridden open-air field with no facilities for life, and no job, no medical care for anyone no matter how young or old, it’s fuckin dangerous
Biden is unable to fix #1 without an act of God (basically firing all existing ICE and CBP agents and then finding 45,000 people who really want to work as immigration police but who aren’t racist or oppressive). He’s unable to fix #2 or #3, although those ones do have legislative solutions, because the Republicans block anything he does, even when he tried promising to do some cruel or racist things as a compromise in order to get them to also agree to some badly needed things (mostly, increasing ICE funding so they can at least house the people they have in better conditions, and increasing the number of judges to process cases so people don’t wait for a year before their case is heard).
And, any time he tries to do anything about it (e.g. try to increase the number of deportations or increase ICE resources, both of which are actually things that would help reduce the suffering from its current state), everyone on the left yells at him, because US immigration is cruel and interacting with it involves interacting with a cruel system.
I would ask ozma the same thing I asked about marijuana policy: What exactly should Biden do to fix the situation? Without resorting to magical solutions like “make ICE not racist” or “just fix the backlog without congress” or just making wild assertions like “oh he could fix it if he wanted to, he just doesn’t want to” or similar things that aren’t how the federal government works?
I’m open to almost anything; I’m happy to talk about details or exact things or policies, as long as it’s grounded in “X and Y are policies he could realistically do and here is how it would help.” But if it’s just yelling and asserting that he is cruel and he could fix it if he wanted and he’s a bad man because US immigration is cruel (which, it certainly is, famously so) and that’s all his fault, I’m not into that conversation.
I would ask ozma the same thing I asked about marijuana policy
Your mistake is thinking that return2ozma is a regular person looking for a nuanced policy debate within the parameters of reality, and not just (at best) some guy who spends every waking hour posting bullshit on lemmy or (at worst) a sock puppet knowingly posting bad-faith arguments as a form of political propaganda.
I don’t know for sure, but I do know that someone who has posted 2550 threads in 11 months (~8 threads/day on average) lives online and should be generally disregarded by any normal, rational person. Ask yourself what kind of person has that much free time to post on reddit/lemmy/social media…
Oh, I know. Trust me, I know. I just want to (a) answer krashmo’s pretty reasonable question (b) have ozma’s refusal to answer my question to be able to refer to in the future, to make the point to other people, when he inevitably posts this bad-faith bullshit a few times a week every week from now until the election.
I definitely appreciated your response. It was thorough and very civil. To be honest I was kind of expecting people to downvote me and not provide any reasoning why so an actual answer was a pleasant surprise
Dude I’m fuckin trying 🥲. Immigration is the one of the bad-faith criticisms that really gets under my skin because it is personal to me in a couple different ways, and this thread is absolutely filled with people who are talking pure bullshit about it for malicious reasons.
Anyway I am happy if you found my input to be useful. I’m gonna go back to just pretending this tide of total crap isn’t washing around the rest of the thread and restrain myself from spending the rest of my night typing hostile and condescending replies to it all.
Immigration is an interesting topic for sure. One of many that climate change is likely to force more urgent action on in the relatively near future. Hopefully we have a more well rounded approach in place by then.
I know the feeling you described well. It’s easy to fall into the rage bait trap. Good on you for taking the high road, even if only temporarily. I’m trying to do better at that myself.
I lost the battle, now I’m being super mean spirited to some obvious shill in some other thread. It is ok. I feel like it’s probably more productive than not, and I am enjoying myself in a kind of this-probably-isn’t-healthy way. 😃
Your mistake is thinking that return2ozma is a regular person looking for a nuanced policy debate within the parameters of reality, and not just (at best) some guy who spends every waking hour posting bullshit on lemmy or (at worst) a sock puppet knowingly posting bad-faith arguments as a form of political propaganda.
It doesn’t seem like a mistake to me to treat people with the respect of generous interpretation.
Do you have specific knowledge of this person, or is this the story you tell yourself about others by default? If so, why?
Well, ultimately I want a utopian Star Trek universe with no borders but that’s kind of a pipe dream right now, so I’m just throwing my arms into the air in the interim.
I share your dream, but the current nationalist system will have to collapse first because there’s too many people who think their dirt is special dirt.
My policy is to eliminate all national borders. This will mean an extra $10,000 per person in GDP in developed countries and an extra $20,000 per person across the global south. Plus we’ll save a ton of money not guarding imaginary lines in the dirt.
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DAE both sides bad?
I do
Here’s the thing, this uses the same legal framework that Trump tried to use when his border crossing ban was struck down in court. Most likely this will be challenged immediately and struck down. This feels like a desperate bid to please moderates and republicans IMO. Not like this will actually survive to be enforced. Still horribly irresponsible and pussy-footing though.
Asylum seekers are the ones turning themselves in… and it is well known closing off asylum seekers and increasing deportations directly leads to more border crossings.
What is the gameplan here with this order? Surely commit extensive resources to the bottlenecked bureacracy to help with processing and screening asylum seekers? Right?
Again it’s Biden way of trying to gain the Republican vote (which the Democrats know they can’t win) rather than try gain progressive vote.
I think he doesn’t want to be president and he’s throwing the election
Only thing that makes sense at this point
Everyone crossing the border is trained to claim they are seeking asylum and they can’t go back to their home country.
Luckily the ACLU is already taking up the fight…
Buts it’s disgusting watching so many people defend it because he has a D by his name, thats what republicans did, and it didn’t take long to get to trump.
Throwing all your standards away is never a good thing.
Also remember that the GoP, if they get in, will dismantle the system entirely and probably allow public executions of LGBTQ
It’s not that people like Joe
It’s that they want a democracy to remain
Hell, a lot are probably hoping Joe drops dead of old age shortly into a second term
Hell, a lot are probably hoping Joe drops dead of old age shortly into a second term
I’m not.
Harris is worse.
2028 primary can’t come soon enough.
Absolutely agree.
If you’re upset about this election, Vote In The Primary’s!
Vote in your local elections!
Make the change happen for next time.So what is everyone going to say if trump runs again in 2028?
That maybe you can find someone better in 2032?
Regardless of whether Trump runs again in 2028, we should pick a better candidate in the 2028 primaries, like we should have in the 2020 primaries. Maybe this time people will fucking show up for the primaries so we can get a progressive candidate elected.
But the thing is…
Everyone voting for Biden, would vote for anyone with a D by their name. Even if they had zero idea what that name was.
So why not run a popular candidate, who won’t do all this horrible shit, and win even easier?
Like, everyone just accepts that Biden is the only option besides trump.
And he’s not even a good option. He barely won last time when he didn’t have all the baggage.
So why not run a popular candidate,
Okay, which popular candidate is running?
He’s been asked that a hundred times. Never provides an answer.
Democrat Yeezus 2028-2062
Me, who remembers Nader and the 2000 stolen election that started kicked off this entire slide towards a fascist state, reading comments and posts like this.
Don’t gift the GOP the election just because Biden sucks ass. He has sucked ass since always, but he’s better than the literal wnd of American democracy.
And he’s not even a good option.
Oh, boy! I love when people say this.
Biden took half a trillion dollars’ worth of action on climate change which he funded by taxing Amazon + friends which ticked emissions down to 40% reduction by 2030 which is way too late and nowhere near enough no but he started working on it the instant he got in office and had to do the whole thing twice because Manchin blew up the first much more aggressive one at the last minute so yes we need to do a hell of a lot more but it seems weird to pick out the ONE guy in American government who has achieved ANY level of forward progress and give him and only him criticism about how we can’t possibly elect him especially since the other guy wants to undo even that step and start blowing up the planet even harder which makes me question a little bit whether you REALLY care about climate change or whether your explicit targeting of the one guy who made some progress on it is maybe motivated by something else
Also there’s student loan forgiveness, 15% minimum corporate tax, 7% increase in wages at the bottom end as compared with inflation even when inflation is at historic levels, NLRB providing legal backing for union activity for the first time in quite a while
I have a few others on the list. The news talks about a bunch of weird bullshit so the fact that all of that happened is virtually unknown in this country. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, though.
hE bARleY WoN LAsT tImE.
Biden received more than 81 million votes, the most votes ever cast for a candidate in a U.S. presidential election.
As if this matters with the electoral college.
I know. It’s infuriating.
People act like they’ve zero eyes, ears and memory and ballotpedia isn’t a thing. It’s only immoral and unethical when the other person abandons their ethics and morals.
I feel like he’s making these moves to try to bring in right-wing voters who say they care about immigration, but literally none of them will give a shit and they’ll still accuse him of being soft on immigration. All he’s doing is just pissing off people in his own party for no actual political gain.
It won’t be literally none. You’re used to the online bubble where everyone’s either rabidly for or rabidly against Trump, but in the actual real world there are still some people who are somewhere in the middle.
I’m not. Both are horrible and not worth my consideration.
This is not a Biden “move”. It’s a response to limitations
but literally none of them will give a shit and they’ll still accuse him of being soft on immigration. All he’s doing is just pissing off people in his own party for no actual political gain.
Unfortunately, a large number of Democrats and independents still think of the border as being in crisis
I’m “defending it” because the man, nor his political affiliation caused this.
He has no option to continue, and no ability to get this type of law passed by Congress.
What are our standards? Letting an unlimited number of people into the country per day without any sort of legal process or system? I genuinely don’t understand what people here are arguing for…
The ACLU has no legal leg to stand on here and are just doing performative politics to raise donations. Despite what libertarian “sovereign citizens” would tell you, last time I checked civil liberties don’t include being allowed to travel and live wherever you want without any sort of legal process. Putting a rather generous upper limit of 2,500/day for asylum claims (from non-port border crosses only) isn’t a violation of anybody’s rights.
Once upon a time, people could freely travel across borders. EU citizens still do.
Well you’d better have some firearms close to your standards so you can enforce them after you win civil war 2.
No, seriously, if you want the US to shift towards the left and Trump gets into power, be prepared to fight and die for those ideals. You won’t be able to just sit around and wait until the civil war is over, you’ll have to fight in it.
Biden barely won 2020 without his baggage and with trump telling Republicans (who traditionally used vote by mail more than anyone else) that voting by mail won’t be counted…
Less than 100,000 rhousand or so votes across five states and Biden lost…
This election Biden has his baggage. trump just launched a big push for vote by mail.
Republicans will vote Republican no matter what.
Dems have standards.
If you’re talking about what’s most likely going to lead to trump winning…
It’s Biden refusing to listen to Dem voters on damn near anything.
What, no mention of the genocide? You’re really slipping here.
And again, since you’re spamming otherwise here:
Biden received more than 81 million votes, the most votes ever cast for a candidate in a U.S. presidential election.
Blue MAGA is gonna Blue MAGA.
Hey, it’s your catch phrase! Bad news though, I made a little histogram, and it’s not catching on. There was a huge spike back around the 20th of May when you and a few other people made a concerted effort to start using it, but it dwindled back down to like a few times a week again since then.
I think you should start inserting it into the discourse some more. It’s sure to catch on. Just keep repeating it! Don’t get discouraged if people make fun of you for it.
I’ve told you that I didn’t create it. It’s been a “thing” on social media since 2016. Here’s all the Blue MAGA search results on Twitter:
https://x.com/search?q=%23BlueMAGA&src=typed_query&f=top
I know you don’t use Twitter but others can see for themselves.
An example
This is what I don’t get about conservatives. They will bitch about immigration and say the border is wide open. Like no my guy it’s so much worse than before. If you are a single issue voter 𝘑𝘰𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘺𝘰𝘶𝘳 𝘨𝘶𝘺
It was never about the border.
It is open.
“The white conservatives aren’t friends of the Negro either, but they at least don’t try to hide it. They are like wolves; they show their teeth in a snarl that keeps the Negro always aware of where he stands with them. But the white liberals are foxes, who also show their teeth to the Negro but pretend that they are smiling. The white liberals are more dangerous than the conservatives; they lure the Negro, and as the Negro runs from the growling wolf, he flees into the open jaws of the “smiling” fox.” - Malcom X
Remember, folks… friends don’t let friends remain liberals.
Here you go… The Most Dangerous Thing in the Western Hemisphere
Apart from a few minor things here and there, I don’t disagree with Chapman on this - which is a rare thing for me with Chapman’s videos these days. I stopped watching him when he endorsed Engel’s ludicrous attempt to justify authoritarianism.
Ah, liberal harm reduction. “Biden can’t change this, its all up to congress. BTW Biden had to personally close the border without congress.”
Jesus Christ, just keeps shooting the chance of not having Trump in the foot, and Trump’s brain melts down on Fox News. Our options are a brain that’s able to work but chooses not to, and a puddle of gray matter with orange spray paint.
Democracy!
Wouldn’t making it easy for immigrants to become citizens help reduce inflation?
Since then it would improve the participants / total USD ratio?
Periodic Reminder - https://youtu.be/VAFd4FdbJxs?si=K1ThbD1wJ76VM3j5
He needs to prepare the country for Emperor Trump.
Ahh yes, the right-wing memes.
*Ah yes, the right wing immigration policy
FTFY
Whats right wing about this? Because Joe Biden made a stupid decision that is actually right wing?
For one thing, Biden isn’t talking about deporting everyone, so the post is just a lie.
Biden has no ability to change it, republicans in Congress made that clear.
If.he continued to allow folks in, the conditions would be unacceptable. They are obviously bad where they are coming from, but it would be conditions caused by the government. To avoid that, with the limited powers he has, he has to remove the custody concern.
Before you.interject that custody/processing is dumb: I agree, but it’s the current law, which, Biden cannot change.
I cant tell if the president can amount dictatorial powers or are completely powerless.
I think Biden could do a lot more and tell the Supreme Court to shove it. FDR did this.
They supreme court is not the key here, dude are you from the us? You should go look these basics up.
The executive branch conducts much of the immigration policy, but Congress sets law.
Really, you don’t think the Supreme Court would be the body that rules the President’s actions are unconstitutional.
How on one hand can we act like the current right-wing Supreme Court as as awful as it is, And then not also acknowledge that most of their evil only matters because of their immense power over all other institutions.
The president can absolutely ram through whatever he wants and tell the Supreme Court to shove it. Heck, we see that all the time with states that just completely ignore electoral maps that are deemed unconstitutional in terms of gerrymandering.
The president can absolutely ram through whatever he wants and tell the Supreme Court to shove it.
…
I don’t want anyone ramming anything.
I want increasingly progressive consensus, reasonable, lawful actions making continual but incremental progress.
Edit this is pro authoritarian posting weather you acknowledge it or not.
I’m frankly sick and tired of bad things being able to happen on a dime, but good things taking decades and decades.
You all are advocating for the same exact thing right now when it comes to our electoral politics. The simple solution right now to you all is to never lose another election again. That is simply untenable. We are seeing in real time that progress that is built slowly can be taken down in an instant. I think we need to fight fire with fire instead of polite comments.
I don’t actually think there is a civil solution to get out of the political mess we’re in right now. We aren’t just disagreeing on things and spirited debate. We are diametrically opposed in our core values. How do we just keep politely disagreeing while they take everything from us? Like, it’s absurd to me that the stakes, if they win, is the end of our democracy, yet we are not treating it with that level of severity. If we truly did, we would stop at nothing to protect our democracy. I think Democrats are allowing democracy to be on the ballot right now, and that is unacceptable.
If democracy is on the ballot, then democracy is already dead.
Because no one reads the actual policies and just make up a bunch of shit because memes are more fun than the boring reality.
If you disagree, explain your understanding of the recent border policies. Quotes from it would be appropriate.
It’s what you would call Hypocrisy
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Context…
Biden pulls from Trump’s immigration playbook in election-year twist
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/04/politics/border-biden-trump-what-matters/index.html
That’s bullshit, you Russian troll
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/us/politics/biden-immigration-asylum-order.html https://www.npr.org/2024/06/04/nx-s1-4991917/biden-executive-order-asylum-migration-border https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-executive-order-immigration-border-asylum/
Hey is the New York Times, NPR, and CBS also russian propganda?
None of those state that Biden is closing the border to asylum seekers.
everyone who disagrees with me is russian or chinese
Everyone why says any version of that line is blocked.
Did you put the words in the right order? I do not understand what you’re trying to say.
That broken grammar makes me think you’re the Russian bot! Putin, your botboy is broken!
Or I made a typo because I’m a groggy human and I’m using swipe input on my phone. But whatever, thanks for helping me grow my block list.
You’re welcome bestie 💋
It’s from CNN. Is CNN Russian now?
Okay, so this is an example of why I think you’re some sort of fake leftist. You’ve said this exact thing to me earlier and I didn’t really dwell on it all that much – but it is very bizarre for a supposedly far-left person to hold up CNN as a trusted source. Almost everyone on the left in the US regards CNN as corporate garbage.
The time before, you actually were arguing with me when I was criticizing a CNN article I think, something like you don’t know how much more liberal it can get than CNN and you don’t see why I would question it, which I interpreted as one of those accidental big slip-ups where the mask comes off a little bit. Maybe I am wrong in that, of course. Surely there are people on the left who for whatever reason trust CNN. But I think the ones of them that are also rabidly anti-establishment-Democrat are probably a lot more rare than you realize. It struck me as much more a statement that would come from someone outside the left, who was accidentally using their own viewpoint on CNN (that it’s “liberal”) and not the fake leftist view they were supposed to be using.
But yes, CNN criticizing Biden on immigration means more or less nothing. I actually talked a little more at length – I think with you – about the ACLU’s criticism of him, which although I would take a lot more seriously I also don’t agree with, and I explained some of the reasons why. But, predictably, you ignored it and just went back to repeating over and over again that Biden is bad on immigration.
Man, I really do commend the effort you put into this. I’m so far into cynicism land that I don’t think I can find my way back.
I just can’t help feel like you’re wasting your breath trying to reason with ozma (as is evidenced by his hilarious reply to the same comment I’m replying to)
Well I mean what else is he supposed to say 😃. Honestly he played it off pretty well; I think trying to argue the point definitely wouldn’t have been a smart thing to try to do.
(The one from this thread was just a little off kilter, honestly. The thing from before where he was surprised that I, a left person, would ever have anything bad to say about CNN, since after all it is liberal – that was super weird. I was just reminded of it when he did a lesser version of it here.)
I can’t think of a news source that isn’t corporate garbage, other than DN and a few other indies. Our news has arguably been corporate garbage since Hearst and the Spanish-American War (you can look up his infamous quote, how Pulitzer competed with his publications, etc. For decades, I was a loyal Dem voter, even suppporting Billary; I was disgusted enough after his second term to start looking hard at Kucinich, and that election cycle, the media mentioned him once or twice in a sentence or two; compare that to the platforms they gave Killary, W and other was criminals, or the recently convicted felon.
I’ve learned to be terse in political commentary, if Eve6n commenting at all because I’m sick of being called a Russian bot. I’m not even adverse to the Russian people, nor am I willing to deny genocide, but “Joe doesn’t genocide, you Russian shill” in some form or other gets damned old. Even when he’s playing in our faces, we get told begrudgingly by very few, “he genocides less than the other guy would!” Right, like he’s so different on other policies.
We do need to demand better candidates from the DNC or better, vote for other parties candidates, but only Russian or CCP shills would dare think outside the box.
TBD idk if Oz is a hired or sock puppet account or not, but refusing to question ourselves and our parties and individual candidates doesn’t make us different, from the other side, it just rearranges deck chairs on the Titanic (nation, planet). It’s late and I’m not really interested in arguing the same tired points. Just putting it out there in wild hope someone interested in hearing actually will consider it.
Almost everyone on the left in the US regards CNN as corporate garbage.
I think far left, not left. But even if this were true, it is far from being called “Russian troll”. What do you think in the article that makes it or him “Russian troll”, or even “corporate garbage”?
Yeah, but ozma specifically claims to be far left – like so much so that he can’t stand any establishment Democrat, as far as I can tell, even Joe Biden who’s significantly more left than the normal (fairly depressing) Democratic standard. That’s the only thing that makes it incongruous. Along with getting confused that anyone else from the far-left (as he claims to be) would ever criticize CNN, because after all, it’s liberal.
I don’t actually agree with calling ozma a Russian or corporate troll. It is extremely clear to me and most other people here that he’s some sort of bad-faith mass poster of disinformation. But yeah, for myself I don’t tend to throw out accusations of particular nationalities or anything like that, because the truth is that none of us have any idea. Sometimes there will be some poster who has a weird and entertaining confluence of ideas that don’t really belong together that involve some particular nation, and so it’s not hard to figure out, but ozma’s not that. He’s all “no Biden” all the time, with a 40% mixture of random other generic-leftist topics to attempt a fig-leaf of being just a normal poster.
Honestly he just irritated me by starting it up as far as immigration. I’m honestly a little surprised that he’s still doing this, since as far as I can tell the result most of the time is just to tee up people to be able to downvote him and talk good things about Joe Biden in a way that would be weird if they just came from nowhere and said “IT’S NOT HIS FAULT IMMIGRATION IS SUCH A MESS RIGHT NOW.” But IDK; maybe the posting of the constant memes and repetition and purely putting it out there is doing some good things for his objectives. Kind of like pushing junk climate science so there will be a “debate” in the public perception instead of “yes of course it’s fucking real why is this even a question.”
Yes, CNN is a liberal news source. I figured Dems love CNN (when it attacks Trump).
Yes, CNN is a liberal news source.
That wasn’t true even back in 2010, when I still watched CNN.
I figured Dems love CNN (when it attacks Trump).
Mask is slipping.
I’m not a Democrat. I’m far left and No Party Preference.
I’m not a Democrat.
Oh, that much I believe.
Wow. That’s crazy. Wow. Yeah, cool cool.
Anyway, what should Biden do to fix immigration?
Go away and insist the dnc nominate someone less slimy.
That’s a great point! Biden did finally take something resembling urgent action on climate change, which is the first time a US president has ever done that. He tried for a lot more, but what he was actually able to get through the congress (which took quite a bit of doing) was putting the US on track for a 40% reduction in emissions by 2030.
It’s a super relevant part of his record, and increases by a significant amount the chance that we’ll get to continue to exist on the earth in 100 years (although there’s about 10 times more work that is needed and even than it’s not certain). With as little time as we have left (basically, none), Trump would be an existential catastrophe to the entire human race, and would be even if his opponent wasn’t actually accomplishing an unprecedented level of progress on the issue.
It’s a good point, and I’m glad you brought it up.
No, just tumbling towards the right from an already-centre-right position, which is probably why you’re comfortable parroting it.
