Craig Sumner Elliott, 68, allegedly shot Antonio Garcia Avalos, 40, in incident in Orange county
A California jogger was charged this week in the killing of a homeless man who was blocking the sidewalk.
Craig Sumner Elliott, 68, was jogging with his two dogs and pushing a cart on 28 September when he came across Antonio Garcia Avalos, 40, who was sleeping in the middle of the sidewalk, prosecutors in Orange county, California, said.
Elliott allegedly tried to wake Avalos by nudging him with the pushcart, whereupon Avalos started yelling at Elliott to leave him alone.
Elliott, who allegedly filmed their encounter, then brought a handgun out of his cart, prosecutors charged, adding that when Avalos stood and threw a shoe at Elliott, he ducked and responded by shooting Avalos three times.
Avalos subsequently died from his injuries. Elliott, who does have an active concealed carry permit issued by the local sheriff’s office, was arrested on 17 November in the incident.
Someone who goes jogging with a concealed gun is just looking for a reason to murder someone. This guy found one. 
In my neighborhood there is a old guy who takes his little granddaughter for walks while open carrying a gun. We live in a very safe suburban area. Some people are fucking nuts and are totally looking for a fight.
What you don’t realize is he’s open carrying to scare the granddaughter straight, she’s concealed carrying and the only thing stopping her from killing you all is grandpa.
The only way to stop a bad grandpa with a gun is a good granddaughter with a gun.
It’s
turtlesguns all the way down.
My neighbor is strapped when he mows the fucking lawn. This is in a neighborhood where zero violent crime has taken place in the five years I’ve lived there.
Eh, hiking and jogging are actually a really good reason to CCW, especially if you live in a remote area. You also have to think about mountain lions and bears where I am, though. We’ve also had multiple trail abductions, 2 of which resulted in laws being passed for abduction here.
That being said, I have been sickened by the number of times I’ve heard jokes like: “This’ll give the mailman a bad time”, or, “I hope they fuck around and find out.” I completely agree, a lot of gun owners WANT to shoot someone.
He had two dogs with him. Highly doubt he’s getting mugged or attacked by mountain lions.
I’m not talking about this guy.
I’m not trying to defend the guy, but two dogs would get DRAGGED by a mountain lion.
Kinda depends on the dogs. A couple chihuahuas aren’t gonna do much against muggers or mountain lions.
I feel ya. Even in a safe neighborhood, shit happens. I related a story in this thread, from just the other night, where a pit bull gave me a fright in my home. (Giant dog door for the pig, would not have kept him out. All went very well!)
Same hood, I saw a post on nextdoor.com about our cross-street, warning that were a couple of pits that often get loose. Chased a pregnant woman down the street!
LOL, I’m on the edge of town and a black bear cruised in a couple of years ago! I know, they’re not typically dangerous, but “trapped” in my house might freak one out. Wasn’t here, missed all the fun. :(
And yes, some of these fuckers are sick in the head. I’m looking for any excuse not to draw, or even reveal, my pistol. Stories like this post make me ill.
Using any handgun, or probably most rifles, against a bear is just going to make it angry. Those fuckers are tanks. Use bear spray for bears.
9mm is iffy, but a lot of handguns in the US are .45 which would do a number on a bear.
Also depends on the bear. A black bear may run at the first sign of trouble. If it’s a grizzly… Bring an anti-tank rifle just to be sure.
I have seen bears run away from the sound of a rifle being fired, in person. They weren’t Grizzlies or anything, just brown bears. Still, I think the sound alone is enough of a deterrent for most bears unless they are desperately hungry or cornered.
Carry both.
That can’t even be a comfortable way to jog!
Almost every time I’ve gone so far as to draw a weapon, or even came close, it involved an animal. The 4-legged sort. And I can count those times, including being close to drawing, on one hand. But still… (Maybe I drew once?)
My small children are here for the week, guns in the safes, but I normally have my Colt .45 hidden on my desk.
Couple of nights ago I heard a ruckus, opened the door, and a fucking pit bull was right there running around. I have a giant dog door, that dog could have run right in. And a bear did so one time!
Grabbed the single-shot 12-gauge over the door sill, jammed one in there, went back on the porch. Fortunately, he was a happy, friendly puppy that got loose from a young family taking a walk. My relief cannot be overstated.
“That your dog?”
“Yes, so sorry!”
“Oh thank god, no problem! No problem at all!”
So no, I’m not walking the streets or woods unarmed. And no, we gun owners are not all murderous fucking nutcases.
68 years old. He probably up until now had the acuity to restrain himself in such a situation. When you get older, barriers between emotional reactions, memory, and perception, start to blur. Everyone agreed that my great uncle never hurt anyone least if all his wife of 50 years a d was known to be a calm dude, until the one day when he chased my great aunt around the house with a knife and then ran off into the forest. If he’d had a gun maybe it would have been one of the many handgun murder-suicides that happen every day. It was just a knife though, so on addition to cooking dinner or cutting a cake, she was able to outrun it.
All humans will go through this, none of them should just have whatever guns without limitations or ongoing proof of sentience.
Everyone who owns a gun are looking to murder someone. They’re just looking for the excuse like someone backing out of their driveway, a door to door salesman knocking on their door, and a bunch of kids playing hide and seek in their neighborhood.
In the past few years I’ve had a homeless fellow break into our home pushing my wife down, had one scream at my wife and push my kid, had one follow my kid being abusive, had a crazy with a broken bottle make stabbing motions towards everyone that passes while giggling. We’ve made do with pepper spray and in my case fists but I can understand a 68 year old dude carrying a gun since he probably can’t physically protect himself. His mistake was believing that having a backup plan made it safe to escalate. This made escalation vastly more likely.
Doesn’t sound like any of those stories involve a sleeping homeless man on public property though.
Public property means we can all use the sidewalk to get from A to B none of us is empowered to make exclusive use of it by blocking it with our tent, body, or homeless shit. It is perfectly justifiable to ask someone to move and it would have been perfectly justifiable to respond to a flying shoe with an ass kicking or better yet pepper spraying. Proportionality is important. Bringing a gun into it is nuts it immediately escalates it even if you don’t intend to fire. You’ve basically decided its going to be a murder or a suicide.
“Elliott allegedly tried to wake Avalos by nudging him with the pushcart”
That’s not asking someone to move, that’s using force to try to get them to move. Although I agree public property means we should all be able to use it and no one should block it, I disagree that any individual is allowed to use force to enforce that law. Report such lawbreaking to the authorities, and then simply walk around them.
it would have been perfectly justifiable to respond to a flying shoe with an ass kicking or better yet pepper spraying
After Elliot assaulted Avalos with his cart, Avalos yelled at him. After Avalos yelled at him, Elliot pulled out his gun. After Elliot pulled out his gun, Avalos threw his shoe.
If someone pulled a gun on you after you yelled at them, would you be justified in kicking their ass or pepper spraying them?
After someone pulled a gun on me I would retreat so as not to die. This rather demonstrates the folly of using threats on crazy people as they don’t respond rationally. At least one lesson is don’t use guns as a threat. Retain them as a last resort in case you should actually need to use them and don’t take chances you otherwise wouldn’t.
If the old fellow had figured either of those out we would have one less corpse and one less prisoner.
I don’t believe what the old man did is justifiable merely comprehensible. People trying to turn this into Rittenhouse with depends are reaching. We have a scared old men and a drug addict who woke up angry. The homeless man goes to a grave and the old fellow likely goes to jail.
It’s yet another example of more guns making our whole fucking society worse.
I don’t believe what the old man did is justifiable merely comprehensible.
The only thing I understood, based on the murderer’s choices, was that he started a confrontation he could have easily avoided, and then chose to kill someone instead of disengage. I would never kill someone for blocking a sidewalk or even throwing a shoe at me. Neither of those things are life threatening.
Why he decided to assault someone with his pushcart, I also don’t comprehend. Just walk around the person. The only thing that makes sense is this murderer had intent to start trouble. It’s like Markeis McGlockton‘s murderer. Some people go around looking for a fight, it’s bad enough that they get away with this most of the time, it’s worse that they are able to carry around a gun. This guy needs to spend the rest of his life in jail so he doesn’t shoot another person just because he’s pissed off.
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I’m not sure if you just don’t believe the bad part of cities exists or the people there don’t have internet?
In the past few years I’ve had a homeless fellow break into our home pushing my wife down, had one scream at my wife and push my kid, had one follow my kid being abusive, had a crazy with a broken bottle make stabbing motions towards everyone that passes while giggling.
Maybe it’s time to take your meds?
I’m not sure if you just don’t believe the bad part of cities exists or the people there don’t have internet?
Oh but those poor unhoused people! We should do nothing to help them but also not bother them when they take up public shared spaces.
If you’re of the opinion that there’s any credible argument for personal firearm ownership for self defense at all (perhaps you don’t, I don’t know you) then jogging alone in the city would seem like one of the better times to carry…
remind me, how do responsible gun owners store firearms again? Is it loaded, armed, and loose in a cart in public?
He had two dogs with him. That’s generally enough of anl deterrent all by itself.
I disagree. I lived in a pretty high-crime part of Brooklyn for 26 years, and at no time did I feel the need to carry a gun to feel safe walking around.
alright time to go for a jog! got my running shoes, sunglasses, headphones, whoops, can’t forget the gun!
Or the cart, apparently. Who jogs with two dogs and a cart?
I’ve seen countless americans claiming that it’s perfectly justified to drive over people if they get in the way of your car, so this is pretty on-brand.
That’s a fact of life here in Utah. Polls have shown most Utahns believe they are justified hitting or killing someone with their car, if that person is in the road (even in a crosswalk) and happens to impede their car. They truly believe this. Of course page one of our driving handbooks states “no matter the situation, pedestrians always have right of way over oncoming cars.” This should be obvious to even the lowest grade moron, but I guess that explains why it’s not obvious to Utahns - they get most of their information from supermarket tabloids and Fox news.
All them damn Mormons I tell ya.
Man is almost 70 and still jogging and shooting homeless people while filming it! Must have been a wild life.
He had two dogs and was pushing a cart that carried his gun…
Whatever he was doing, it wasn’t jogging.
And him taking his phone out to record himself kicking the other man and yelling at him first, was likely only because he was hoping to antagonize a homeless person so he could “defend himself”.
He’s got to be one of those idiots who believe the “stand your ground” bullshit.
You can’t start kicking a sleeping man and then claim you’re a victim, but he’s gonna try
That was my first thought, reading the article. There’s no way he was just jogging. What kind of jogger takes a cart with them? I’ve never seen something like that, and I see a lot of joggers in my area.
When the story first broke, most articles called him a dog walker.
Anything to not make it obvious it’s another rage addicted boomer I guess
He’s 68, it’s probably more of a Walker with a basket on it. I think identifying him as a “jogger” is a generous term. I assume it’s just an old man walking his dogs around the neighborhood.
Absolutely. This is one of the big problems with so many people carrying guns. There are many shitty people looking for a reason to use them.
He allegedly nudged the guy illegally blocking the sidewalk who responded by trying to assault an old man. Do you have a copy of the video I could not find one.
When the guy didn’t move after he “nudged” him with his cart (I would bet money that it was harder than a nudge but whatever) he really couldn’t just go around onto the street? No, he would have rather filmed himself fighting with someone than just be a normal person.
No, you shouldn’t block a sidewalk. No, you shouldn’t have to walk in the street with your dogs. Fine. But what you can do is pick your fucking battles and be the bigger person.
There’s no sane reason to condone murdering another human being instead of taking a step to the right.
Sounds like the homeless guy was “assaulted” first.
You wake up to someone “nudging” you with their “cart” and expect not to be annoyed? Or, not to think they are trying to run the “cart” over you? Oh, and they have two (likely full-size) dogs with them. Would you really not go into fight-or-flight mode, really??? … Really?
Have you noticed how most homeless folks most places are not directly obstructing the sidewalk. Instead they are of to the side, in a doorway, in a green space. Anywhere they wont directly get stepped on, woken up, or rousted. If you directly block the sidewalk you might expect to have some hassle and not react by attempting to assault people by throwing your shoes at their head.
But god forbid we should praise police for their response in arresting this homicidal jerk. Obviously police caused this, somehow. And are just agents of evil. Humans should be allowed to kill and rape and molest other humans with impunity. Because otherwise, some asswipe on social media might accuse you of being (GASP!!!) a “bootlicker!”
Victim complex much? No one was antagonizing you, there’s no reason to be so defensive
Oh look, it’s one of those bootlickers now! Remember kids, police can do no wrong and if they hurt or kill you, it’s because you didn’t show the proper deference due to your masters!
I’ve seen entire farms with less straw than this argument.
Police shouldn’t be “praised” for doing their jobs, in most cases. The majority of their day is spent fucking off unless some shit goes down, which is what they signed up for. Also, they’re legally immune from almost any action they take on the job, they’re very well compensated, with all the overtime pay they want, and if they do fuck up bad enough to lose a lawsuit, we all pay for it, not them.
So yeah: how’s that leather taste??
What a fucking coward, you threw a shoe at me? Time to die!
dehumanization is absolutely disgusting, and it’s a core part of this capitalist hellscape
I wonder if the shooter isn’t slipping into dementia or the like. One clearly has to be suffering some sort of mental illness to lose their shit like this.
I’m 52, so this is a concern for me. First hint that I’m losing it? My wife will be instructed to change the safe codes and hide the backup keys. Gets worse? Guns will all have to go.
Why wait? Are they that important to you that you’re willing to risk becoming another sad news story? How are you so sure your wife is trustworthy?
If you’re worried about it maybe you should act on it.
Absolutely, right there with you.
I’m also gun owner and I feel that just like cars should have (but don’t), we need some sort of competency check-in system after a certain age. With all due respect of course, but as people age they become a danger to themselves and those around them.
Remember when the Iraqi threw the show at former president Bush and he didn’t do anything to the Iraqis?
Lol I love how this is being turned into an attack on capitalism.
This wouldn’t have happened if only the homeless man had a gun! We need to educate the homeless to carry weapons! More guns is the answer!
Before anyone says he deserved it for throwing a shoe…
Someone did that to George W. Bush, WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT, and he was simply arrested.
I believe they threw both shoes even!
And this happened in Iraq.
That shoe was a weapon of mass destruction
… is anyone arguing that it was justified?
No, which is why they said “before”. Which is probably fair, cos some gronk is gonna say something heinous along those lines. It’s 2023, welcome to hell.
Omg someone has a stupid opinion! This is both a modern thing and literally hell!
Well trash has been removed from the sidewalk.
Unfortunate that an innocent homeless man had to die though.
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LOL, I’m not a Republican. Says a lot about you though that you thought I was.
🙄
This could have been avoided if there was a Good Jogger With A Gun
I’m starting a charity… “Arm the Homeless”. We can set up arming stations for the unhoused, providing assault rifles and even free ammo for those who run low.
Yeah really! Such a thing is a complete oxymoron. Just like the people who think they’re good for carrying concealed weapons. It’s just a billion accidents looking for excuses to happen.
Supposed “good guy with a gun” led to a death that wouldn’t have happened if there were stricter gun control.
Arm the homeless!
Clearly he needed to use deadly force to protect himself from that (checks post again) rogue shoe…
He should have done like W and dodged the shoe. Shit George dodged twice and didn’t shoot anyone. He left the shootings to Dick Cheney.
Wants a guy laying on the sidewalk to move. Naturally, he kills him so he can’t move out of the way. Logical.
Exactly how do you ‘nudge’ someone with a cart? Is talking to them loudly or reaching down and touching a shoulder really that impossible? (god forbid you choose to go around them, the inconvenience!)
You don’t, you hit them with a cart.
Apparently, it was the old man who threw the shoe, not the homeless man
Glad he is charged. It is what he deserves.
Only took 50 days to arrest him. Expedited.
