Raya has already cost us a few goals by being out of position. Newcastle and others come to mind where a more traditional keeper would’ve not made these mistakes.
I can’t help but think there’s a trade off between Raya’s passing and his actual goal tending, shot stopping abilities.
Are you forgetting all the howlers Ramsdale let in? Raya has given up some goals due to his aggressive positioning but he has stopped a lot of crosses because of it.
Ramsdale is great at making breathtaking saves but then letting in stupid goals later. I love him but if we want to win, we need a keeper like Raya.
Arteta lost the league, because the team was braindead. We let alot of stupid goals, which allowed other teams to punish us.
Liverpool, westham, Southampton, Bournemouth first goal.
Now imagine if we weren’t braindead during Fulham or that stupid pass from Jorginho during spurs. That is 4 points lost already.
It’s why the defense is our strong point this season. Conceding less goals allows us to win more games. Arteta doesn’t want to lose games, because of dumb brain fart moments.
Arteta lost the league when Tomi and Saliba got injured on the same day
Both can be true.
Nope, we have to attribute the culmination of a million tiny contributions to a single point of failure!
We lost when we draw those 3 games. Mentality was an issue with the squad.
They should have never been in the squad against sporting at all.our league posititon at that time renderd the uefa cup meaningless for us.thats was artetas mistake.
I like this narrative because it makes it seem like we also didnt shit the bed in every other position, we lost the league because we lost to nottingham forest and drew to west ham and southampton, if we absolutely need tomiyasu and saliba to not concede 3 goals to southampton then maybe we had other problems
Arteta lost the league because he had a paper thin squad. Eventually, a mixture of having key players out and other key players burnt out lost him the league to a squad with superstars.
Don’t overcomplicate it. Holding, Sambi, Elneny don’t get a sniff anywhere else in this league.
Holding hasn’t played a single minute for the team in 13th and we rocked up to the Etihad with him last season
Ramsdale was literally the best keeper in the league last season - Arsenal don’t look as good so far this season and Raya has already had a bunch of dodgy moments and major mistakes
It’s also just terrible management - if Raya has a dodgy period (as is normal), the pressure on him from the media will become insane
Similarly, if Ramsdale is thrown back in for some reason, he’ll feel totally different out there, and way more likely to make an error or two
Ramsdale will probably now also be the subject of a lengthy transfer saga, as Arteta tries to stop him leaving for a rival - so yet more media attention and dressing room instability
There was just no need to create any of this drama
Ramsdale was literally the best keeper in the league last season
wrong, and that award doesn’t actually make it right.
Arsenal don’t look as good so far this season
attack, maybe not. defense is literally better due in part to Raya’s ability on the ball. Our fast counter attacks are better with Raya since he catches the ball further up and has better long distribution. Raya backspinning punt to Martinelli is on, all day.
if Raya has a dodgy period (as is normal), the pressure on him from the media will become insane
because of fans like you constantly banging on about Ramsdale probably, media knows they can farm clicks off you guys specifically
Similarly, if Ramsdale is thrown back in for some reason, he’ll feel totally different out there, and way more likely to make an error or two
So now you are preemptively making excuses for Ramsdale? Meanwhile Raya is getting raked over the coals for not having won every single fan immediately and putting up 9/10 performances.
How softly are we supposed to handle Ramsdale, who is hopping on podcasts talking about how easy he thought the league was gonna be, how distracted he gets during matches, how he asked Arteta to compromise on how high up he plays, and whose dad is banging on about how sad Aaron is?
They’re both obviously good keepers - but I feel like this situation could bring out the worst in both of them
Unless Raya is a mentality monster - he must be going out there more nervous than normal - and the media and many fans are just waiting to pounce on him making mistakes
Similarly, Ramsdale must be torturing himself, and is also likely to be more nervous and less fluid than normal when given a chance
If Ramsdale doesn’t get his place back, then he’s gonna want to move - and that’s also going to cause a media-fest and more instability in the dressing room and squad
Maybe it’s all worth it in your eyes because you think he is a problem - but many people don’t believe he was a problem that needed addressing and that all this drama was unnecessary
If Raya comes through it all then credit to him
Maybe then it’s time for Ramsdale to put in 110% now that he’s on the back foot. He is still young enough and his ceiling is very high imo.
But you cannot say he hasn’t regressed, and to be honest all of this podcast talk isn’t doing him any favors, even if that’s unfair to hold over him. This team isn’t missing huge pieces anymore. We are searching for that extra percentage here and there to take us over the edge. Raya over Ramsdale represents that. Mikel wanted him first
I mean that’s obviously true - but squad and man management is a tricky and subtle business
That’s why good man managers are so rare - and these kinds of situations can cause all kinds of problems, that’s just the way it is
And the media is there, literally just waiting for Raya to have a nightmare game - sucks, but you have to be aware of that kind a shit
Dude’s dad isn’t helping
Let him leave for fucks sake, footballers’ careers are too short to spend bench-warming. Mikel’s intentions are clear - Raya’s the first choice and Ronnie will not get those rotation minutes.
Those who wanted him out when he spoke out against homophobia will be fun to watch when he puts in a 10/10 performance against us for Chelsea.
The stat about long pass completion percentage is the key here - Raya 2nd in the league and Ramsdale 22nd. That’s such a huge shift but people keep saying it’s a sideways move. You’ve gone from the least accurate long passing keeper in the league to the 2nd best. It doesn’t directly show up in highlight reel saves but in terms of game flow and ball retention arguably it is more important.
I remember the last 15 minutes against palace, down to 10 men and Ramsdale just hoofing it long and it going to a palace player every time and coming straight back! My heart couldn’t take it! He must have been told to do that because he kept doing it. But it didn’t and still doesn’t make sense to me, we trust our ball playing defenders and our ability to play out from the back. Why did we abandon it in that moment surely that was the best way to relieve pressure?
Clearly wasn’t instructed given he’s not first choice for those reasons
I’m pretty sure that’s why Ramsdale has been replaced. When the pressure came on him he chose to hoof the ball repeatedly and put his own image ahead of the needs of the team.
Raya will keep playing it short even after making a mistake.
Agree.
Arteta wants a keeper to have his foot on the ball and draw the opposition in to create space. Raya takes those risks more frequently and while that can lead to a greater opportunity for scary moments or mistakes % wise he creates more of the situations that Arteta is asking for whereas Ramsdale has been more risk adverse.
People say it’s a sideways move because so far what we have seen is a sideways move. I don’t give a shit what stats you read out to me from his time at Brentford. I care about his performances for arsenal and thus far he has been worse than Ramsdale.
He hasn’t been worse, hasn’t been as good as he was for Brentford but he’s still been better than Rambo. People like Aaron so for them Raya’s mistakes stay longer in their minds than Ramsdale. But Rambo has been average to below average as a keeper for us since his first few months. If he’d kept the form he had wen he first moved to us, I’d be equally as aggrieved by him getting replaced but imo, he plays like a small club keeper. Needs to be busy to show his best.
How has he better than Ramsdale?
He has made four point dropping mistakes in 10 appearances.
It includes his stats from Arsenal this season…
Bear in mind that, comparing the statics from last season means nothing. You cannot compare the number of passes (be it short or long) between Brentford and Arsenal, when our ball is inside the opponent’s half most of the time.
It’s not comparing the number - it’s comparing a percentage
I hate to be all “ackshually” but it’s comparing percentiles. The difference usually doesn’t matter but it does here.
Even when you compare just their games for Arsenal Raya is a much better long passer than Ramsdale
You’ve gone from the least accurate long passing keeper in the league to the 2nd best
is that what the stat is saying? it doesn;t say anything about it just being for keepers in the article
Yes it’s just keepers.
Let’s not forget that this stat was key to our win at City. After the goal, we drained like 10 minutes just having Raya hoof it to the wings and then working the ball back to him. Ramsdale couldn’t have sustained that nearly as long.
Exactly - too many people still struggle to judge keepers past making world class saves when a keepers value is now so much more than that - and even then Rayas saves over expectation numbers are far better than Ramsdales
Fwiw, I also think keepers are the single hardest player to judge by eye, because good keeping is often about avoiding the memorable moments. Ramsdale will make a world class save from time to time, but Raya just catches the cross.
Completely agree which is why I tend to lean on the data (saves over expectation relative to xG, distribution and progression numbers, cross claiming numbers) and Raya excels or is at least very good in all these areas. Problem is the “eye test” that people remember is him misplacing a few 40 yard passes which have ended in a goal - for example the Lens goal from his misplaced pass to Tomiyasu - 95 times out of 100 that doesn’t end in a goal but Wahi just pulled some magic out of his arse and all of a sudden people are disproportionately attacking Raya because of it - and because its early into his “controversial” elevation to our starter it sticks in the mind more than it would with any other keeper
Bbbbbut he lost his smile.
We’re we expecting him to turn around and publically say ‘oh shit my bad, shouldn’t have done that’?
Raya hasn’t shown yet why he’s worth £30m or why he’s better than Ramsdale. Big errors in big games people here seem to be sweeping under the rug or making excuses for.
I like Ramsdale but this isn’t a pro Ramsdale argument, it’s just the Raya isn’t yet proving to be better, and has already directly cost us points.
Raya is just better in every category that matters to Arteta who trusts him to carry out the game plan. And the eye test backs up the stats on this.
Mikel does not care about the errors either - he’s said as much publicly. What Arteta is basically telling his keepers is “I want you to take risks with the ball. If you screw up then it’s my fault, not yours.”
For the keeper it’s all mental when out on the field - to not be scared, to be willing to take the chance and execute what the manager is asking for even if every game you make an error and people wanted you dropped. Doesn’t matter to Arteta - all he will say is “get back up and keep playing like I want.”
What we saw from Ramsdale in the run in last season is that I don’t think he could handle that mentally. And Arteta got fed up with it. The loss to Brighton at home last season was the final straw when Ramsdale kept knocking it long so we couldn’t get a foothold in the game.
There’s a notable video of Pep in training basically saying the same thing generally to his players. https://x.com/KeyframeSports/status/1686669393504190464?s=20
You say we saw what ramsdale did in the run in, take the Southampton error. But Raya has already done that twice, against City and Chelsea, even closer to his own goal.
Arteta has said that quote to support his keeper publicly, but there’s only so many times he can watch these happen with no consequence. If Raya is allowed to keep making these mistakes (which has happened a lot in his limited game time so far with both kicking and crossing) then; 1) That sets a dangerous precedent for any competition 2) The errors will keep happening because Raya isn’t good enough to change, because Arteta will insist he does the same thing.
The stats may show he’s ‘better’, but big errors against Lens, City, Newscatle and Chelsea isn’t encouraging at all, yet no one in this sub seems to have issue with those?
There’s no accountability for Raya on the short term with his errors or in the longer term with his position seemingly never going to be questioned or challenged? Never of these things are good.
Ramsdale passed directly to a southampton player and we conceded. Raya almost got stuffed by Alvarez.
Now fast forward to the 2nd half of that City game. There is no way in hell Ramsdale could distribute that calmly when holding a lead against City. That is the difference but people just drawn to individual moments completely miss that
There are tons of games in the season. As long as Arteta plays Rammers enough throughout the season I reckon he’d be content. It’s just Arteta tends to rely on one person and freeze another out. Which really makes you wonder why he basically lied to everyone’s face about doing rotations when his tendencies weren’t that, and didn’t show it after. There’s no doubt for EPL games Raya is the keeper that give us the most confidence.
That was a basic generic media response. Did you really expect Arteta to say “nah i rate raya more than ramsdale so he’ll be starting all CL and PL games from now”
As a journalist, they can only print what you say. As a fan, it’s up to you to read between the lines.
Using only stats to compare players is weak but there’s a consensus Ramsdale is a better shot stopper than Raya but there isn’t really a stat that shows that from the last 2 seasons.
I think there is a prevented goals metric that shows Raya well ahead of Ramsdale as well
Hard disagree that there’s a consensus on that.
I think what Ramsdale excels at is pressure situations, big games, and pulling off spectacular saves.
But to judge consistent goalkeeping ability one must take the stats into account which clearly show Raya ahead of Ramms.
I still think this is a big gamble from Mikel when you consider squad dynamics and club culture - players need to know that they can trust the manager. Rammers is top quality, stands to improve further, is loved by his teammates and fans, and as far as we know he has always given 100% on and off the field. He’s also signed a big contract with Arsenal just before we signed Raya. Getting rid of Ozil, Auba, and Leno have all worked so far and we’re justifiable, but at what point do players look at one of these instances and conclude that it could happen to them too?
Isn’t that the point of becoming one of the very very best in the world?
Are there players at City, Barca or Bayern who think they are irreplaceable? Or that the manager will not bring in competition for them, if it will lead to the greater success of the group?
The very best players don’t get scared, they get better.
You say other players might look and wonder if it could happen to them. I say, maybe that’s exactly what Mikel wants, so that the players who don’t fancy a fight can opt out. And the players who are absolutely determined to win can see that Arsenal is a club where the manager is the same.
I can see your point and it’s completely true. The romantic in me wants my attachment to players to be rewarded and for them to go on to be club legends, but it seems like top football clubs today can’t function that way and still win big trophies.
Wenger would never have done this, and always picked his players’ futures ahead of blindly chasing success, but we wanted ruthlessness and can’t seem to digest what comes with it now that we have it.
Look at what happened with KT as well. By all accounts never a problem in training, or any ethics, but just dropped. I would say that due to his injury issues he could not be relied upon for the entire season, but that does not preclude you from bringing him on late on, when Zinchenko forgets defending. If the marginal improvement Raya brings over Ramsdale is the reason, then Gabriel Jesus and Zinchenko shouldn’t even be allowed in training. Look at the injury issues Jesus had + Zinchenko’s lack of ability.
This whole thing seems very hypocritical and un-Arsenal.I don’t subscribe to the ‘hypocrisy’ argument since there are different reasons which can be deeply tactical why a coach has strong preferences for some players which we can’t see as fans.
Regarding KT I’d back Arteta - he did not fit the manager’s vision for the role. Zinchenko is a defensive liability but going forward he’s quality, and also he is anyway likely behind Timber in the pecking order.
If anything the cases of KT and Zinchenko show that Mikel is consistent with his mentality of constantly looking to improve the squad at all costs. Also if our interest in Toney and Vlahovic are true, then it’s clear that Mikel also sees issues with Gabby J as our primary #9 and wants to upgrade the position.
Gabby J was probably envisioned as an elite versatile forward option, rather than just a 9
Cause one was playing for Arsenal, the other Brentford. Look at ladt defensive stats. United players look better. Why? Because they had more to do.
Alright now compare this seasons Raya to last season Ramsdale. We’ve faced less shots per90 yet Raya is still ahead of Ramsdale on everything other than saves
This idea that ramsdale has done little wrong is so jarring. Were people not watching after new years
People say Raya makes them nervous on corners when Ramsdale has let in what, three or four goals directly from the corner kick? Doesn’t make sense to me.
He used to just watch the ball come in and would be get outmuscled by attackers on corners it was so frustrating to see. And on crosses he just stand there waiting for the ball to come in.
His passing looked great for us against Sheffield. Can’t say I’ve ever been impressed besides that, no matter what stat gets thrown at me…
Arteta is stubborn af.
ramdsale is strong backup for now, his few appreances show he is not better than raya
Raya’s footwork, positioning, decision-making and distribution all appear to be lacking. The coaching staff must see something different on the training pitch, but he’s going to have to figure out how to cut through the noise and perform sooner rather than later. He has had a few moments where I have thought that he looks like a top flight keeper, but he needs to clean up the fundamentals so that he can consistently do the routine things we need him to do.