They very genuinely hate men and thus can’t understand why anyone would “want” to be one, nor do they accept anyone who “once was a man.” Once you see shit like “political lesbianism” thrown around, you understand that there’s just no hope.
It’s like a horseshoe from TERF to toxic masculinity, as both groups are terrified of seeing beauty in men (and all people) and have a very narrow definition of what a man can be.
Where I live its like everyone is pro MTF but against FTM. So you have all these transwomen and nonbinary people who claim they hate terfs but at the same time, they’ll act like FTM isn’t a real thing and they’ll give it a different name and just say “genderqueer” even if you’re talking about someone who is FTM and they refuse to acknowledge the term “Transman” but love Transwomen.
Like it really feels like there is so much in-fighting in the LGBTQ+ community. They often talk about acceptance but I rarely see them put that into practice outside of Pride events.
As a queer person myself I’ve not yet seen something like this at least not something common or popular. The mainstream LGBTQ+ community is clearly accepting of trans men and most of the “in-fighting” in queer communities is made up by conservatives.
And btw you should use trans man instead of transman because the latter implies trans men are somewhat different from “regular” men.
When you write “trans man” you’re using trans as an adjective and as a description of a man. When you use “transman” it’s a new noun and this means it’s a different thing other than just “men”.
also way to piss me off. Like are you trolling? Did you miss the context of my original post? You sure glazed over the discrimination I was talking about just to correct me on something that didn’t need to be corrected.
This really comes off like you’re trying to make this out like I said something I NEVER SAID.
yes I’m mad. I feel like you’re fucking with me and you better not be. Like do everyone a favor and be honest. Are you really trying to have a good faith discussion about this?
I deal with enough racism and homophobia in real life. I don’t want to deal with it here too.
Pretty straightforwardly. If the goal is for gender differences to not exist, then having someone so strongly identify with a gender is pretty counter to the point. It just tries to ignore the current reality that there are social differences between men and women.
That’s part of what I don’t understand about the whole ‘women and men are equal, there are no real differences’, held up next to ‘call me a [wo]man not a [wo]man.’
It looks like one side is saying a persons behavior/likes/dislikes is tied to expression of genitalia, and the other is saying it isn’t. And these are often the same person saying both in different circumstances.
They can have differences and still be treated equally. I don’t think that’s too hard to grasp.
I.e. Women are more likely to wear make up but they should still be allowed to vote.
It’s also not tied to their genitalia. It’s tied to their brain chemistry/structure, which in the majority of people matches their genitalia.
The brains of transgender women ranged between cisgender men and cisgender women (albeit still closer to cisgender men), and the differences to both cisgender men and to cisgender women were significant (p = 0.016 and p < 0.001, respectively). These findings add support to the notion that the underlying brain anatomy in transgender people is shifted away from their biological sex towards their gender identity.
But, the ‘they have (non-marginal) differences but should be treated equally’ is the problem.
If there are differences that matter, those should be considered.
If there aren’t differences that matter, it doesn’t make sense to ‘care’ what gender you are.
The two categories of people covered by ‘TERF’ for instance would seem to interpret your referenced study as supporting and opposing their views.
(In practice, I understand that it basically never matters if someone is a man or a woman but upside of specific situations, mostly involving physical attraction. But I also just don’t ‘get’ why people try to create a ‘he’ or ‘she’ identity. I don’t really care if they do… it just seems like a contradiction.)
Equality doesn’t necessarily mean treating the exact same. For example equality for somebody in a wheelchair might mean giving them equal access to a place by installing a ramp, not giving them the same access via the stairs as those who don’t need a wheelchair use.
You can acknowledge differences and do different things with those in mind to attain equality.
The problem isn’t that there’s differences between genders, but the assumption that 1) all people of a certain gender will think or act in accordance with the trends of their gender and 2) that the differences between genders means that one is better suited to certain tasks than the others.
For 1, while the behavior of men and women follows certain trends on a large scale, if you pick a random individual from each gender, they’re likely to be as similar or different from each other as if you had selected two people of the same gender. So when you’re doing something on an individual basis, like hiring for a position or electing someone to office, the average differences between the genders really doesn’t matter and should not inform your decision more than the person’s individual characteristics.
For 2, there’s an assumption that there’s exactly one type of person suited to a particular role, and that type of person is more likely to be of one particular gender. This assumption is false, though, as true innovation is not spurred by having a group of like-minded people, but by bringing a variety of viewpoints and personalities together so that problems can examined from every angle. Diversity in general ensures better coverage of an issue’s potential pitfalls and a larger pool of knowledge and experience, so hiring from one gender because they’re “naturally good at this kind of thing” is really only limiting the potential of the group.
I think your post makes my point well, actually. If the differences between people of a gender is so wide spread as to not matter in a personal level, it seems silly to be highly offended if you are referenced as the wrong gender. If someone calls one of us a brunette or blonde, I don’t think anyone would take great offense because it just doesn’t matter… gender seems like the same rule should apply.
Humans aren’t logical machines. What makes sense is rarely the key to how we work. We have a whole unconscious mind that decides a lot of how we behave.
How we externalise gender is mostly down to how we are raised, society and the media. How we feel about it is down to our brain.
If we weren’t raised with such a big divide between boys and girls these problems wouldn’t be anywhere near as big of a deal.
If people didn’t receive hate and judgment based on how they expressed it I doubt many people would care as much.
But you would still have things like gender body dysmorphia where the brain can’t deal with the physical body.
Well that depends on who dishes out the definition. For example: should a physically male criminal be put in a female prison if he says he feels he’s a woman? Should prisons, sports etc. be mixed to make sure no-one is excluded? For many TERF-whisperers even suggesting that these things should be up for debate makes you the biggest TERF of them all
How can TERF even exist ?!
They very genuinely hate men and thus can’t understand why anyone would “want” to be one, nor do they accept anyone who “once was a man.” Once you see shit like “political lesbianism” thrown around, you understand that there’s just no hope.
It’s like a horseshoe from TERF to toxic masculinity, as both groups are terrified of seeing beauty in men (and all people) and have a very narrow definition of what a man can be.
It’s tribalism, sexists, they have decided an enemy who they feel has somehow collectively acted to wrong them.
Yep, and women are praised for being “tribe builders”.
Toxic, no other word for it. Directly opposed to society, effectively.
Where I live its like everyone is pro MTF but against FTM. So you have all these transwomen and nonbinary people who claim they hate terfs but at the same time, they’ll act like FTM isn’t a real thing and they’ll give it a different name and just say “genderqueer” even if you’re talking about someone who is FTM and they refuse to acknowledge the term “Transman” but love Transwomen.
Like it really feels like there is so much in-fighting in the LGBTQ+ community. They often talk about acceptance but I rarely see them put that into practice outside of Pride events.
As a queer person myself I’ve not yet seen something like this at least not something common or popular. The mainstream LGBTQ+ community is clearly accepting of trans men and most of the “in-fighting” in queer communities is made up by conservatives.
And btw you should use trans man instead of transman because the latter implies trans men are somewhat different from “regular” men.
Can you explain how a space between the words does that?
When you write “trans man” you’re using trans as an adjective and as a description of a man. When you use “transman” it’s a new noun and this means it’s a different thing other than just “men”.
but men is just plural? Like I was referring to a group of people. That doesn’t mean they aren’t men.
This was not about singular or plural it’s about writing “trans man” and “trans men” with a space or not
also way to piss me off. Like are you trolling? Did you miss the context of my original post? You sure glazed over the discrimination I was talking about just to correct me on something that didn’t need to be corrected.
This really comes off like you’re trying to make this out like I said something I NEVER SAID.
yes I’m mad. I feel like you’re fucking with me and you better not be. Like do everyone a favor and be honest. Are you really trying to have a good faith discussion about this?
I deal with enough racism and homophobia in real life. I don’t want to deal with it here too.
I feel like nitpicking things like this is taking away from more important things.
Like the fact that transmen ARE MEN.
I am NOT a conservative and I am NOT making this up.
And I really do not fucking appreciate how you have been talking to me this entire time.
Sure… You’re just using the language that conservatives use and making the same points conservatives do.
just stop trolling or if you’re serious… think about why you do the things conservatives do
Pretty straightforwardly. If the goal is for gender differences to not exist, then having someone so strongly identify with a gender is pretty counter to the point. It just tries to ignore the current reality that there are social differences between men and women.
That’s part of what I don’t understand about the whole ‘women and men are equal, there are no real differences’, held up next to ‘call me a [wo]man not a [wo]man.’
It looks like one side is saying a persons behavior/likes/dislikes is tied to expression of genitalia, and the other is saying it isn’t. And these are often the same person saying both in different circumstances.
They can have differences and still be treated equally. I don’t think that’s too hard to grasp.
I.e. Women are more likely to wear make up but they should still be allowed to vote.
It’s also not tied to their genitalia. It’s tied to their brain chemistry/structure, which in the majority of people matches their genitalia.
But, the ‘they have (non-marginal) differences but should be treated equally’ is the problem.
If there are differences that matter, those should be considered.
If there aren’t differences that matter, it doesn’t make sense to ‘care’ what gender you are.
The two categories of people covered by ‘TERF’ for instance would seem to interpret your referenced study as supporting and opposing their views.
(In practice, I understand that it basically never matters if someone is a man or a woman but upside of specific situations, mostly involving physical attraction. But I also just don’t ‘get’ why people try to create a ‘he’ or ‘she’ identity. I don’t really care if they do… it just seems like a contradiction.)
Equality doesn’t necessarily mean treating the exact same. For example equality for somebody in a wheelchair might mean giving them equal access to a place by installing a ramp, not giving them the same access via the stairs as those who don’t need a wheelchair use.
You can acknowledge differences and do different things with those in mind to attain equality.
I think what you’re describing is equity of opportunity, not strictly equality, but that’s semantics.
The problem isn’t that there’s differences between genders, but the assumption that 1) all people of a certain gender will think or act in accordance with the trends of their gender and 2) that the differences between genders means that one is better suited to certain tasks than the others.
For 1, while the behavior of men and women follows certain trends on a large scale, if you pick a random individual from each gender, they’re likely to be as similar or different from each other as if you had selected two people of the same gender. So when you’re doing something on an individual basis, like hiring for a position or electing someone to office, the average differences between the genders really doesn’t matter and should not inform your decision more than the person’s individual characteristics.
For 2, there’s an assumption that there’s exactly one type of person suited to a particular role, and that type of person is more likely to be of one particular gender. This assumption is false, though, as true innovation is not spurred by having a group of like-minded people, but by bringing a variety of viewpoints and personalities together so that problems can examined from every angle. Diversity in general ensures better coverage of an issue’s potential pitfalls and a larger pool of knowledge and experience, so hiring from one gender because they’re “naturally good at this kind of thing” is really only limiting the potential of the group.
I think your post makes my point well, actually. If the differences between people of a gender is so wide spread as to not matter in a personal level, it seems silly to be highly offended if you are referenced as the wrong gender. If someone calls one of us a brunette or blonde, I don’t think anyone would take great offense because it just doesn’t matter… gender seems like the same rule should apply.
Humans aren’t logical machines. What makes sense is rarely the key to how we work. We have a whole unconscious mind that decides a lot of how we behave.
How we externalise gender is mostly down to how we are raised, society and the media. How we feel about it is down to our brain.
If we weren’t raised with such a big divide between boys and girls these problems wouldn’t be anywhere near as big of a deal.
If people didn’t receive hate and judgment based on how they expressed it I doubt many people would care as much.
But you would still have things like gender body dysmorphia where the brain can’t deal with the physical body.
Well that depends on who dishes out the definition. For example: should a physically male criminal be put in a female prison if he says he feels he’s a woman? Should prisons, sports etc. be mixed to make sure no-one is excluded? For many TERF-whisperers even suggesting that these things should be up for debate makes you the biggest TERF of them all