These people are crazy and very dangerous. I hope Americans - and especially American media - can stop bothsidering Joe and unhinged fascist craziness like this.
It would be nice if the world was so easily divided into black and white, but it isn’t. Politics is complicated, and the actions of the Israeli government are not the actions or even the will of the Israeli people. Israel deserves to exist, and so does Palestine. Acknowledging the rights of both people doesn’t negate condemnation of what either government has done in violation of human rights.
Trying to walk that middle line between their right to exist and disavowing their actions is harder than you think. You think it ought to be easy, except for the people who think differently from you and insist that the opposite solution you want is the only acceptable path.
We don’t have the privilege of knowing everything about the situation. Trying to drive from the back seat isn’t helpful.
Both sides may have done some shit, but one side is very clearly the aggressor, oppressor, and vile inhumane monster, and the other systematically enslaved, tortured, and driven off their own land.
If two people fight, but one of them literally walked up to the other and started beating the shit out of him, it’s not like “Well, they both fight dirty, so let’s not make it black and white but nuanced, like there IS no right and wrong.”
That still doesn’t make this a black and white situation. Would Israel be able to get away with selling their atrocities to the Israeli people if Hamas weren’t dedicated to doing the same to Israel? If the Palestinian government had been willing to accept compromise forty to fifty years ago, would Israel have been able to do what they’ve done?
The answer, of course, is no. No one’s hands are clean. And there’s really no easy solution that doesn’t violate ethics because we’re on the outside looking to force solutions on them. Just like they’re doing to each other. If we abandon Israel, then they’ll suffer what they’ve done to the Palestinians, and the Israeli people don’t deserve that any more than the Palestinians. You can’t tell me you have a better solution because you don’t.
and the actions of the Israeli government are not the actions or even the will of the Israeli people
the government of Israel is nominally democratically elected. I have no idea how fair those elections were or weren’t. That government represents the people. if the people have a problem with it’s actions… it’s probably time for them to do something about it. In the mean time, there are some things that are pretty fucking black and white. Genocide is one of them.
Supporting genocide… is not cool.
We don’t have the privilege of knowing everything about the situation.
Are you saying that Israel is some how not committing war crimes and atrocities?
Genocide is bad. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are guilty. But the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are not their governments. We can’t abandon either of them and keep the moral high ground. So how do we accomplish all of those goals and get their governments to accept it.
You can’t force your black and white perspective on this no matter how satisfying you might find it.
So we (the us) are obligated provide military aid to genocidal maniacs?
I think you need to get your moral compass checked. There is exactly zero justification for continuing military aid to Israel… and biden’s “tough” language has no teeth and we all know it.
Remember… the reason we’ve given Israel so much aid in the past is precisely to give Biden teeth- but now that we’re here he’s a coward. (Or actively hoping for AIPAC money.)
Let’s make this equal: Palestinians have a right to defend themselves.
Merely existing isn’t the same standard. Every single argument except “the holocaust and you owe us”… can be flipped and used to back a pro-Palestine position,
Further? Your argument is… pretty freaking atrocious. We have no moral obligation to provide military aid to Israel.
Providing military aid to a nation that is committed to a genocidal campaign more than kind of makes us complicit in said genocide.
We can and should support the civilians. Doesn’t mean we have to support genocide and provide genocidal maniacs weapons of war.
Finally, and this is critical. Israel is, nominally, a democratic state. The current government was elected into power what? Last year?
Gaza residents last had an election 17 years ago, with the wining party (Hamas) having been supported by Israel specifically to destabilize Palestine… and even then they only had 44% of the vote. More than half of Gazans that are alive today did not get to vote then.
It is fair to say that Gazans aren’t responsible for Hamas’ actions. It is less fair to say Israelis are not responsible.
The US provides Israel with billions in money and weapons every year, while making sure everyone knows that if anyone tries to stop their genocide the US has Israels back. They have a air craft carrier group parked just outside for a reason.
he could have stopped all military aid and placed sanctions to the maximal extent of presidential authority and pressured congress into doing what he alone can’t. he hasn’t even denounced the genocide. the CIA has couped countries for much less bad things, why not now?
Listen I don’t like Biden’s support of Isreal right now either but to not vote for him just because of that is lunacy- allowing Trump to win will result in a genocide within our own nation. Just look at project 2025, the Trump crowd is planning it.
when did I say anything about voting? I’m tired of people shutting down any criticism of Biden because we aren’t allowed to have a primary to replace a shitty candidate who is polling below a generic democrat ahead of an important election
Because there are tons of people that aren’t going to vote for Biden over Israel. I’m sorry I just assumed, but I’m so used to people saying “I’m not voting for Biden because of Israel” so I just assumed. I would like Biden to be replaced in the primary with someone better as well, but it’s not going to happen.
biden supporters shouldn’t sweep concerns like that under the rug because that’s how you lose elections. entitlement to people’s votes isn’t a good strategy, and “moderate” (right wing) candidates aren’t actually safer since the median American is progressive based on how they respond to polls on individual issues. I’m sick of having these arguments with biden fans who seem to support him despite these glaring issues. personally I wasn’t gonna vote for him anyways because I live in a deep blue state where it literally doesn’t matter but if we get a fascist takeover of the government because biden lost it’s all on biden fans for their poor choice in candidate and I just hope you’ll join us on the barricades
I feel like that fatalistic attitude is too commonplace. That it’s inevitable that fascist takeover, although Biden is not my favorite in any way, shape, or form, I would still have anything other than a fascist takeover with popular support. I feel like that kind of defeatism only sets us up for failure like in the Francoist revolution. Spain’s left was so bitter that they really couldn’t join together when the shit hit the fan.
Chin up man, of course we will join on the barricades if that happens. Don’t let them live in your mind so much, let them “minecraft” in your mind.
it feels inevitable because spineless liberals roll over and let them get away with nearly everything they’re doing. when are they gonna stand up and say “NO!” already? being nice and civil when they aren’t is just letting them win, and that kills people. treating then any different than nazis is at this point being complicit. it shouldn’t have been allowed to get this far in the first place. spineless liberal “centrists” have been losing to fascists around the globe and contrary to what many Americans believe we have the same laws of physics as the rest of the planet.
we all saw this coming in 2016 with Hillary Clinton but y’all let that go ahead and it didn’t work so we’re in this mess now. Biden barely worked in 2020 and he’s a liability for 2024. it feels like y’all don’t even care and would rather trump in any any sort of progressive candidate. notice how the republicans never try this strategy and still win even when the fundamentals run against them and only get worse. candidate voters like => turnout is a simple formula. taking your voter base’s votes for granted because of flawed game theory and trying to reach for people who aren’t gonna switch doesn’t work well. and the voters you’re losing aren’t the ones who are politically engaged enough to argue politics on the internet. they’re the ones who don’t bother showing up to vote unless they see someone they like because otherwise what’s the point? they think. and they’re not even wrong to feel that way. give people something to vote for and they’ll vote. shame them like this and they don’t.
it’s just basic political science and if you ignore it I’m one of the first into the holocaust centers.
also you’re wrong about Spain but that’s a drunken rant for another post this one’s long enough as is
“Ok, so he did stop the genocide. But he didn’t stop it fast enough! Oh, the same day you say? Well he didn’t stop it from happening in the first place!”
You can’t argue with people who aren’t really arguing.
It’s not the average American you have to worry about … it’s the corporate controlled media companies that are pushing this narrative.
If you opened up the stage for people to speak up, they wouldn’t want any of the people that are in place right now.
The media and the establishment are the ones who drive the narratives because they are the ones with all the money and control.
So average people aren’t deciding on wanting someone like Trump … it’s corporate heads and wealthy backers who are promoting, advertising and pushing this narrative because that’s what they want.
If these stories didn’t sell, the media wouldn’t run them. Yes, they should be objective and stop being culpable in this ongoing assault on American democracy… but they’re serving a market.
They’re not serving a market … they’re serving a master.
The general media is not an independent entity that does things to make a bit of money … they are a tool that is used by corporations and the wealthy elite to corral people into a certain mindset and beliefs … that eventually lead everyone into electing only those people that are marketed to them.
“It’s never gonna get any better. Don’t look for it. Be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don’t want that. I’m talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.” - George Carlin
People wanting to read crazy, unhinged, insane, chaotic garbage about how the world is falling apart doesn’t mean that they want it to keep happening or that they approve or that they think these are the right people to have in charge.
Their motives don’t matter because the result is the same.
Edit: The algorithm is driven by engagement. One’s particular reason for engaging with media content is wholly irrelevant- to the algorithm, watching Alex Jones because he’s a flaming racist homophobic paranoid schizophrenic and watching Alex Jones because one is a flaming racist homophobic paranoid schizophrenic are equivalent. The algorithm doesn’t care why the content was engaged with, only that it was.
And the algorithm serves the capital. Who needs truth and accountability when there’s PROFIT!
I think the whole “let people decide what they want to see” line of argument is bogus, just like the lie about the relation ship between supply and demand. There’s a big difference between “Hey I will tell you the truth for a penny”, and “Hey I will tell you whatever you want to hear for a penny”.
So you’re blaming capitalism? I’m very much with you on that one. Except that the job of media is not to make money, but to report objective fact, and have people pay for that. You seem to have it backwards, otherwise there’d be no news, only sports, gossip, and porn.
The propaganda machinery is total. They dictate to us what we can even talk and think about just like those 24/7 radios from 1984 installed in everyone’s homes (which was a real thing in the Soviet client states, by the way)
Dude, they are the worst fanatics there, but this shit has spread all across the world. I can’t even recognize my own country anymore, used to be one of the most socially progressive nations in the world. All it took was a little bit of consistent funding to right wing extremist groups over twenty years, which is nothing to achieve such dramatic political aims. With the help of the amoral conservative “private enterprise is more efficient than government ~for the capital~”, people just sleepwalked straight into it.
These people are crazy and very dangerous. I hope Americans - and especially American media - can stop bothsidering Joe and unhinged fascist craziness like this.
But Joe didn’t stop the genocide!
You know, by acting unilaterally… In a foreign country over which he has no authority… Mired by centuries of dissent…
Right, he didn’t actively say he’s a Zionist and pledge support no matter what Israel’s actions.
He did say he’s a Zionist.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/
I’ve recently noticed that Lemmy often has great difficulty with detecting sarcasm.
It’s like the sarcasm-aware never left Reddit and the ones that did just can’t spot it even when pretty blatant in front of their face.
I would have thought that would be the one place where a /s isn’t needed
Well well welll
So “both sides” because Biden believes Israel should be allowed to exist? 🙄
The issue is that Israel is refusing to allow Palistinians the same right to exist.
Right now, supporting Israel is the same as supporting genocide. Any moral obligation to support Israel has long since eroded into history.
It would be nice if the world was so easily divided into black and white, but it isn’t. Politics is complicated, and the actions of the Israeli government are not the actions or even the will of the Israeli people. Israel deserves to exist, and so does Palestine. Acknowledging the rights of both people doesn’t negate condemnation of what either government has done in violation of human rights.
Trying to walk that middle line between their right to exist and disavowing their actions is harder than you think. You think it ought to be easy, except for the people who think differently from you and insist that the opposite solution you want is the only acceptable path.
We don’t have the privilege of knowing everything about the situation. Trying to drive from the back seat isn’t helpful.
Both sides may have done some shit, but one side is very clearly the aggressor, oppressor, and vile inhumane monster, and the other systematically enslaved, tortured, and driven off their own land.
If two people fight, but one of them literally walked up to the other and started beating the shit out of him, it’s not like “Well, they both fight dirty, so let’s not make it black and white but nuanced, like there IS no right and wrong.”
That still doesn’t make this a black and white situation. Would Israel be able to get away with selling their atrocities to the Israeli people if Hamas weren’t dedicated to doing the same to Israel? If the Palestinian government had been willing to accept compromise forty to fifty years ago, would Israel have been able to do what they’ve done?
The answer, of course, is no. No one’s hands are clean. And there’s really no easy solution that doesn’t violate ethics because we’re on the outside looking to force solutions on them. Just like they’re doing to each other. If we abandon Israel, then they’ll suffer what they’ve done to the Palestinians, and the Israeli people don’t deserve that any more than the Palestinians. You can’t tell me you have a better solution because you don’t.
the government of Israel is nominally democratically elected. I have no idea how fair those elections were or weren’t. That government represents the people. if the people have a problem with it’s actions… it’s probably time for them to do something about it. In the mean time, there are some things that are pretty fucking black and white. Genocide is one of them.
Supporting genocide… is not cool.
Are you saying that Israel is some how not committing war crimes and atrocities?
Genocide is bad. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are guilty. But the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are not their governments. We can’t abandon either of them and keep the moral high ground. So how do we accomplish all of those goals and get their governments to accept it.
You can’t force your black and white perspective on this no matter how satisfying you might find it.
So we (the us) are obligated provide military aid to genocidal maniacs?
I think you need to get your moral compass checked. There is exactly zero justification for continuing military aid to Israel… and biden’s “tough” language has no teeth and we all know it.
Remember… the reason we’ve given Israel so much aid in the past is precisely to give Biden teeth- but now that we’re here he’s a coward. (Or actively hoping for AIPAC money.)
The problem is people acting like the alternative to Biden is any better
Exactly! And these protest vote morons couldn’t pick a worse time to bury their stupid heads in the sand
A lot of it is Russian and GOP psyop bullshit on social media
I think that’s true. Also though, never underestimate the power of pure unadulterated stupidity
the problem is just having the one alternative
The problem is kind of also that out of the two alternatives people will default to the worst choice, because the OK choice is not perfect.
This is the logic of Republicans.
False dilemma.
It’s possible to support the position of both sides.
Israel has a right to defend itself.
The Palestinian people have a right to exist.
Let’s make this equal: Palestinians have a right to defend themselves.
Merely existing isn’t the same standard. Every single argument except “the holocaust and you owe us”… can be flipped and used to back a pro-Palestine position,
Further? Your argument is… pretty freaking atrocious. We have no moral obligation to provide military aid to Israel.
Providing military aid to a nation that is committed to a genocidal campaign more than kind of makes us complicit in said genocide.
We can and should support the civilians. Doesn’t mean we have to support genocide and provide genocidal maniacs weapons of war.
Finally, and this is critical. Israel is, nominally, a democratic state. The current government was elected into power what? Last year?
Gaza residents last had an election 17 years ago, with the wining party (Hamas) having been supported by Israel specifically to destabilize Palestine… and even then they only had 44% of the vote. More than half of Gazans that are alive today did not get to vote then.
It is fair to say that Gazans aren’t responsible for Hamas’ actions. It is less fair to say Israelis are not responsible.
War is bullshit in every case. Also, arguing on the Internet is a waste of time.
However, I never argued for funding anything.
In an idyllic world you wouldn’t be so upset, nobody would die, and war wouldn’t exist. I hope you find that world through pure will of righteousness.
Have a nice day.
I’m not sure an occupying force can claim any moral “right” to defend itself.
The US provides Israel with billions in money and weapons every year, while making sure everyone knows that if anyone tries to stop their genocide the US has Israels back. They have a air craft carrier group parked just outside for a reason.
Do all countries have a right to exist, or just Israel?
Could you clarify your position please?
he could have stopped all military aid and placed sanctions to the maximal extent of presidential authority and pressured congress into doing what he alone can’t. he hasn’t even denounced the genocide. the CIA has couped countries for much less bad things, why not now?
Listen I don’t like Biden’s support of Isreal right now either but to not vote for him just because of that is lunacy- allowing Trump to win will result in a genocide within our own nation. Just look at project 2025, the Trump crowd is planning it.
when did I say anything about voting? I’m tired of people shutting down any criticism of Biden because we aren’t allowed to have a primary to replace a shitty candidate who is polling below a generic democrat ahead of an important election
Because there are tons of people that aren’t going to vote for Biden over Israel. I’m sorry I just assumed, but I’m so used to people saying “I’m not voting for Biden because of Israel” so I just assumed. I would like Biden to be replaced in the primary with someone better as well, but it’s not going to happen.
biden supporters shouldn’t sweep concerns like that under the rug because that’s how you lose elections. entitlement to people’s votes isn’t a good strategy, and “moderate” (right wing) candidates aren’t actually safer since the median American is progressive based on how they respond to polls on individual issues. I’m sick of having these arguments with biden fans who seem to support him despite these glaring issues. personally I wasn’t gonna vote for him anyways because I live in a deep blue state where it literally doesn’t matter but if we get a fascist takeover of the government because biden lost it’s all on biden fans for their poor choice in candidate and I just hope you’ll join us on the barricades
I feel like that fatalistic attitude is too commonplace. That it’s inevitable that fascist takeover, although Biden is not my favorite in any way, shape, or form, I would still have anything other than a fascist takeover with popular support. I feel like that kind of defeatism only sets us up for failure like in the Francoist revolution. Spain’s left was so bitter that they really couldn’t join together when the shit hit the fan.
Chin up man, of course we will join on the barricades if that happens. Don’t let them live in your mind so much, let them “minecraft” in your mind.
Someone mentioned barricades? I’ve been waiting for the barricades, are they up finally?
it feels inevitable because spineless liberals roll over and let them get away with nearly everything they’re doing. when are they gonna stand up and say “NO!” already? being nice and civil when they aren’t is just letting them win, and that kills people. treating then any different than nazis is at this point being complicit. it shouldn’t have been allowed to get this far in the first place. spineless liberal “centrists” have been losing to fascists around the globe and contrary to what many Americans believe we have the same laws of physics as the rest of the planet.
we all saw this coming in 2016 with Hillary Clinton but y’all let that go ahead and it didn’t work so we’re in this mess now. Biden barely worked in 2020 and he’s a liability for 2024. it feels like y’all don’t even care and would rather trump in any any sort of progressive candidate. notice how the republicans never try this strategy and still win even when the fundamentals run against them and only get worse. candidate voters like => turnout is a simple formula. taking your voter base’s votes for granted because of flawed game theory and trying to reach for people who aren’t gonna switch doesn’t work well. and the voters you’re losing aren’t the ones who are politically engaged enough to argue politics on the internet. they’re the ones who don’t bother showing up to vote unless they see someone they like because otherwise what’s the point? they think. and they’re not even wrong to feel that way. give people something to vote for and they’ll vote. shame them like this and they don’t.
it’s just basic political science and if you ignore it I’m one of the first into the holocaust centers.
also you’re wrong about Spain but that’s a drunken rant for another post this one’s long enough as is
That’s a complicated question with an even more complicated answer. The two words I will use are geopolitical advantage.
“Ok, so he did stop the genocide. But he didn’t stop it fast enough! Oh, the same day you say? Well he didn’t stop it from happening in the first place!”
You can’t argue with people who aren’t really arguing.
It’s not the average American you have to worry about … it’s the corporate controlled media companies that are pushing this narrative.
If you opened up the stage for people to speak up, they wouldn’t want any of the people that are in place right now.
The media and the establishment are the ones who drive the narratives because they are the ones with all the money and control.
So average people aren’t deciding on wanting someone like Trump … it’s corporate heads and wealthy backers who are promoting, advertising and pushing this narrative because that’s what they want.
If these stories didn’t sell, the media wouldn’t run them. Yes, they should be objective and stop being culpable in this ongoing assault on American democracy… but they’re serving a market.
They’re not serving a market … they’re serving a master.
The general media is not an independent entity that does things to make a bit of money … they are a tool that is used by corporations and the wealthy elite to corral people into a certain mindset and beliefs … that eventually lead everyone into electing only those people that are marketed to them.
“It’s never gonna get any better. Don’t look for it. Be happy with what you got. Because the owners of this country don’t want that. I’m talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls.” - George Carlin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_Zqbg6QThg
People wanting to read crazy, unhinged, insane, chaotic garbage about how the world is falling apart doesn’t mean that they want it to keep happening or that they approve or that they think these are the right people to have in charge.
Their motives don’t matter because the result is the same.
Edit: The algorithm is driven by engagement. One’s particular reason for engaging with media content is wholly irrelevant- to the algorithm, watching Alex Jones because he’s a flaming racist homophobic paranoid schizophrenic and watching Alex Jones because one is a flaming racist homophobic paranoid schizophrenic are equivalent. The algorithm doesn’t care why the content was engaged with, only that it was.
And the algorithm serves the capital. Who needs truth and accountability when there’s PROFIT!
I think the whole “let people decide what they want to see” line of argument is bogus, just like the lie about the relation ship between supply and demand. There’s a big difference between “Hey I will tell you the truth for a penny”, and “Hey I will tell you whatever you want to hear for a penny”.
Motive always matters.
So you’re blaming capitalism? I’m very much with you on that one. Except that the job of media is not to make money, but to report objective fact, and have people pay for that. You seem to have it backwards, otherwise there’d be no news, only sports, gossip, and porn.
And that’s why, even though finally Biden opened his mouth to tell corporations to stop price-gouging, prices are still high.
The propaganda machinery is total. They dictate to us what we can even talk and think about just like those 24/7 radios from 1984 installed in everyone’s homes (which was a real thing in the Soviet client states, by the way)
The fate of the country doesn’t matter silly, ratings do!
Dude, they are the worst fanatics there, but this shit has spread all across the world. I can’t even recognize my own country anymore, used to be one of the most socially progressive nations in the world. All it took was a little bit of consistent funding to right wing extremist groups over twenty years, which is nothing to achieve such dramatic political aims. With the help of the amoral conservative “private enterprise is more efficient than government ~for the capital~”, people just sleepwalked straight into it.
The worst part is that I can’t even figure out where your from with that description. Netherlands? UK? New Zealand?