I am aware of the End of History and it’s more likely that society will shift towards libertarianism instead of socialism, considering how popular a brand is at being the US president and how everything regarding communism is already dead, or just capitalism painted red like what China does (see this community’s icon as an example). I’d like to see socialism, something like UBI, but we’re in a corporate world showing no signs of stopping, where brands are so prevalent that people flock to defend them without a second thought.
You’re also using it wrong. Currency and the state have been a part of human society throughout history, from slavery to feudalism to capitalism. Implying that the End of History will somehow remove this need for currency and the state is a fairy tale and a misuse of The End of History.
I am not using it wrong… the end of history is about marx defining history as a set of class struggles. I see now that you’re deep in not listening to what actual marxist scholars say so i’ll have to source everything, I don’t do this because it takes a long-ass time and is boring, but here goes:
" The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.
Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes. "
This is where he sets up an idea based on the hegelian dialectic that there’s a natural progression of history through base and superstructure. The point being that his definition of history is one of class struggle. Logically it follows that the endpoint of history is one without class struggle, no?
Implying that the End of History will somehow remove this need for currency and the state is a fairy tale and a misuse of The End of History.
Yeah so this is a complex one but whether or not its a fairytale is irrelevant, that’s the marxist belief, and the point of this discussion is to clarify what you believe marxists believe, not whether or not it’s true.
Marx clearly said communism would be “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!” How does that work if currency is involved?
the gist of it if you’re not going to read it, is that currency would be replaced by a system of labor vouchers, where you are paid based on the amount of work you do directly instead of just currency, this means it doesn’t circulate and allow you to accumulate wealth. The reason this has to happen for it to be the end of history is that part of the abolishment of class struggle is the abolishment of generational wealth, etc. I hope that makes sense to you now.
Yes, he did.
Where? The screenshot you gave is from the communist manifesto where he’s detailing the possible pre-conditions for communism, he at no point says “this is what communism will be like:”. This is merely a prediction of what an advanced country that might implement communism looks like.
Also the ones i listed in the text, the zapatistas and the revolutionary catalonians, it’s literally right after I said that sentence.
I don’t care about the US, it’s a clown country and always has been.
You’re completely missing the point of my argument, my argument is that based on your analysis the american revolution where kings were finally overthrown would be impossible simply because it hadn’t happened before, things that haven’t happened before aren’t impossible.
dismantle since you haven’t actually said anything of your own views.
I’m not giving my own views, i’m attempting to explain to you what marxists believe, i’m not even a marxist!
Tell me also what you think of Stalin, Mao, North Korea and tankie communities. No vague handwaving ‘methods,’ or ‘reasons.’ Those aren’t answers. You need to be exact.
I think all authoritarianism is evil, I don’t believe stalin or mao were genuine communists, i think they were powerhungry dictators who used communism as a propaganda tactic. Tankie communities are bad because they deny the very real evil things these people have done, some of the people in those communities are genuine communists who have just been mislead, however. Is that clear enough for you?
in short, stalin mao, north korea evil bad. tankie communities dumb.
Also, i want to make a note about something you said here:
“it’s more likely that society will shift towards libertarianism instead of socialism, considering how popular a brand is at being the US president and how everything regarding communism is already dead, or just capitalism painted red like what China does (see this community’s icon as an example).”
It’s not about the current zeitgeist, there’s an inevitable force causing class struggle to come to a close, you see, as these places have become more and more beorgeois, and as the proletariat has fewer and fewer resources, we get closer to a revolution, this is fundamental because eventually they will starve the masses, you’re noticing the same pattern marxists did and drawing that the conclusion is that it must go on forever, when in actuality, there has to be a breaking point. Automation alone is likely to be that breaking point, when most people can’t find work, they will have a choice:
Starve
revolt.
Which do you think they’ll pick?
Yeah, i’m very lazy about giving sources, it’s a lot of work and I already know the material and sorting through it is like solving a maze, it’s boring, takes forever, and is completely not rewarding, i think that’s the reason i’ve been accused of giving vague answers (although the link you gave said nothing about me giving vague answers, in that i was accused of trolling for asking for a source for something, i maintain i was not trolling), I don’t want to have to cite everything i say to have discussions I find interesting about communism.
I am not using it wrong… the end of history is about marx defining history as a set of class struggles. I see now that you’re deep in not listening to what actual marxist scholars say so i’ll have to source everything, I don’t do this because it takes a long-ass time and is boring, but here goes:
" The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.
Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild-master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes. "
This is where he sets up an idea based on the hegelian dialectic that there’s a natural progression of history through base and superstructure. The point being that his definition of history is one of class struggle. Logically it follows that the endpoint of history is one without class struggle, no?
Yeah so this is a complex one but whether or not its a fairytale is irrelevant, that’s the marxist belief, and the point of this discussion is to clarify what you believe marxists believe, not whether or not it’s true.
Marx clearly said communism would be “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!” How does that work if currency is involved?
You’d do well to read this particular source: https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/
the gist of it if you’re not going to read it, is that currency would be replaced by a system of labor vouchers, where you are paid based on the amount of work you do directly instead of just currency, this means it doesn’t circulate and allow you to accumulate wealth. The reason this has to happen for it to be the end of history is that part of the abolishment of class struggle is the abolishment of generational wealth, etc. I hope that makes sense to you now.
Where? The screenshot you gave is from the communist manifesto where he’s detailing the possible pre-conditions for communism, he at no point says “this is what communism will be like:”. This is merely a prediction of what an advanced country that might implement communism looks like.
https://anarwiki.org/List_of_Anarchist_Societies
Also the ones i listed in the text, the zapatistas and the revolutionary catalonians, it’s literally right after I said that sentence.
You’re completely missing the point of my argument, my argument is that based on your analysis the american revolution where kings were finally overthrown would be impossible simply because it hadn’t happened before, things that haven’t happened before aren’t impossible.
I’m not giving my own views, i’m attempting to explain to you what marxists believe, i’m not even a marxist!
I think all authoritarianism is evil, I don’t believe stalin or mao were genuine communists, i think they were powerhungry dictators who used communism as a propaganda tactic. Tankie communities are bad because they deny the very real evil things these people have done, some of the people in those communities are genuine communists who have just been mislead, however. Is that clear enough for you?
in short, stalin mao, north korea evil bad. tankie communities dumb.
Also, i want to make a note about something you said here:
“it’s more likely that society will shift towards libertarianism instead of socialism, considering how popular a brand is at being the US president and how everything regarding communism is already dead, or just capitalism painted red like what China does (see this community’s icon as an example).”
It’s not about the current zeitgeist, there’s an inevitable force causing class struggle to come to a close, you see, as these places have become more and more beorgeois, and as the proletariat has fewer and fewer resources, we get closer to a revolution, this is fundamental because eventually they will starve the masses, you’re noticing the same pattern marxists did and drawing that the conclusion is that it must go on forever, when in actuality, there has to be a breaking point. Automation alone is likely to be that breaking point, when most people can’t find work, they will have a choice:
Starve
revolt.
Which do you think they’ll pick?
Yeah, i’m very lazy about giving sources, it’s a lot of work and I already know the material and sorting through it is like solving a maze, it’s boring, takes forever, and is completely not rewarding, i think that’s the reason i’ve been accused of giving vague answers (although the link you gave said nothing about me giving vague answers, in that i was accused of trolling for asking for a source for something, i maintain i was not trolling), I don’t want to have to cite everything i say to have discussions I find interesting about communism.
Changed to
I’m banning you for arguing in bad faith, since you didn’t suck it up and admit that you made a mistake and were wrong about Marx.