• Bonskreeskreeskree@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    You gonna force everyone into dense cities and make them walk or do you know of some new transportation techniques that will allow people outside of city center to ditch all their cars?

    • Strykker@programming.dev
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      1 year ago

      Go look at small towns in Europe and the fucking trains they have. Then weep when your city 100 times the size has worse public transportation than them.

      You don’t need to live in a big fucking city for public transportation, you just need a government that fucking cares.

        • SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          Once upon a time, the US was the birthplace of the labor movement, fighting for labor rights like the 40 hour week and overtime pay. And now, the US is one of the most anti-labor countries in the developed world. When cars were first introduced, there were anti-car protests in US cities. It took decades of brainwashing by the car industry for Americans to feel that cars “make them American”.

          Culture can change. It starts when people recognize how bad it is to depend on cars and demand better options.

            • SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca
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              1 year ago

              Beware of any history that makes the current state of affairs seem inevitable. There are always countervailing forces.

              There are dozens of articles if you do a search online, but here is one article from Bloomberg.

              Americans have grown up with versions of the “car culture” thesis: This is a nation that simply likes cars, and this preference is the biggest factor in the extent of car domination. Maybe clever marketing and interest group lobbying has something to do with this (the thesis concedes), and maybe the preference is not rational; still, we prefer cars, even in settings that are poorly suited to them, and even to the point of putting up with their high financial, social, environmental, and safety costs. All over America in the 1950s and 1960s, residents, particularly women, organized demonstrations against car traffic.

              Anti-car protests were successful in places like New York City and Vancouver, Canada, which is why they are some of the only places in North America without highways cutting through them. San Francisco also had major protests, but highways were forced through anyways.

        • Hobo@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          People might laugh or discount your comment, and you might’ve made it in jest, but that’s probably one of the biggest hurdles that the anti-car crowd refuses to take seriously. Americans love cars, and a lot of Americans for sure love gigantic monstrosity tricked out cars. We have songs about trucks, guns, and Jesus, and you can bet your ass those things are the same level of special for a lot of people.

          I personally would love to see viable public transportation, but you’re going to have to change culture which isn’t as easy as, “We built some nice trains and buses! Now everyone use those instead!” You’re going to have to convince the gun toting, Jesus loving, jacked up Ford F-450 Super Duty owners to give up a huge piece of their personality. And from what I can tell that hasn’t been working out so great with guns. Maybe we can write a nice country songs about riding trains and buses? We used to have a few of those.

      • icedterminal@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        That’s the difference. The government doesn’t have the desire, or the people don’t vote in favor. In some cases, they don’t even have the money.

      • LaLiLuLuCo@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        Hi I live in a small European town and still need a car. It’s not the gotcha you think it is. The busses and trains are neat for young healthy people with one backpack. Turns out I don’t go out and need one back pack of stuff.

        I’m moving back to the US because of the massive labor shortage and that shutting down your economy on Sundays is discriminatory towards non Christians.

        The train doesn’t alleviate a ton of other car needs in daily life.

        Oh also my packages and my garbage don’t get delivered or taken away reliably in large part because the roads are too narrow. Fuck this. I end up needing to drive anyway.

        I would rather have good car infrastructure than the ability to back pack around. It massively influences my quality of life. If I need a car once a week I’m going to use my car more than that and I have a lot more options once I’m doing so.

        Edit : just got told I need to go to the next town over to get a covid test. I can either hang out at the bus stop or train station for an hour sick af, then walk a bunch, to get a test. Or I could drive.

      • Bonskreeskreeskree@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        The fact you’re comparing small European towns built off rail stops to sprawling American cities with 100x the population says more than enough about your argument

        • Strykker@programming.dev
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          1 year ago

          The fact you don’t realize basically every American city was once a rail stop says enough about your intelligence.

    • SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      No, the idea that this is only possible in dense cities is a myth. Look at the town planning of small rural communities in the US established before the dominance of cars. They are way more walkable and bikable than most modern developments. People living in small towns probably still need to own a car, but they don’t need to use one nearly as much.

      This artificial division between super high density cities where public transportation is possible and super low density suburbs where you must have a car is also a very North American mindset. There are small towns and villages throughout Europe and Asia serviced by buses and trains, and with plenty of biking and pedestrian infrastructure. Cars aren’t inevitable, we just seem to be unable or unwilling to imagine anything else.

    • neanderthal@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      You gonna force everyone into dense cities and make them walk

      I don’t advocate completely getting rid of cars, but they aren’t always a good way to get around.

      Why should large portions of the US be all but forced to drive a car? It requires registration, licensing, insurance, and sometimes inspections or emissions testing?

      Bicycles, pre-ww2 style small towns, mixed used zoning, and rail would all reduce car usage.

      For example, allow building small general stores in residential areas like mine so people don’t have to drive to the store for every little thing. Lots of minor improvements add up.

      I’d be happy to answer any questions about reducing car usage.

      • Bonskreeskreeskree@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        I live in a major metropolitan suburb. County population over 700k. It is over a mile to the front of my neighborhood, which is not even off of a major road. Are we as densely built as the city? No. Is there much room to put anything else? No. Rail? Unfortunately, hell no. People are so quick to tunnel vision in on their situation in their town and think its applicable to the whole world. Im not walking over a mile to potentially get to a bus stop. What about the disabled? They just mobility scootering miles to get to what is hopefully a handicap accessible bus? Inclement weather? There’s so many things the rose tinted glasses don’t see.

        • neanderthal@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          TLDR: Reducing car dependency helps drivers too by reducing traffic and getting bad drivers off the road.

          There’s so many things the rose tinted glasses don’t see.

          A lot of people, like me, live in the US in similar environment so we are well aware of the issues. Super car dependent design like that is pretty hard to undo. I don’t blame people for buying houses in these areas because it is often the best location and best financial decision. When I bought my house, it was the best location for reducing the amount of driving. Non SFH in more dense parts that aren’t rentals are pretty much non-existent.

          Im not walking over a mile to potentially get to a bus stop. What about the disabled? They just mobility scootering miles to get to what is hopefully a handicap accessible bus?

          So, steps taken to reduce car usage help people that have to drive due to reduced traffic and hopefully getting people off the road that shouldn’t be driving.

          It is over a mile to the front of my neighborhood

          The best you might be able to do in the near future is maybe lobby to rezone a property that goes up for sale to allow a small general store or other micro businesses that won’t draw in much outside traffic.

          It won’t be a fast or easy process, but car dependency at the scale it is in the US is not sustainable.

    • mayo@lemmy.today
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      1 year ago

      I feel like we shouldn’t be arguing with each other about this stuff? It’s like class conflict, wrong enemy.