“enlightenment ideas”, like democracy and such. This framing is very cynical, since the european upper class probably got those concepts from the native Americans which the US displaced/genocided.
The point is about the concepts of the European Enlightenment being derived from Native Americans (which is absurd), not that the Founding Fathers specifically understood and owe some debt to Native American forms of governance (which is controversial but mainstream and backed by evidence).
Are you suggesting that the native american tribes couldn’t have had democratic societies?
No, I’m suggesting that the idea that the European Enlightenment era ideals of democracy were stolen from Native Americans because Europeans were too dumb to look at their own contemporary democratic societies and European history is fucking absurd.
This framing is very cynical, since the european upper class probably got those concepts from the native Americans which the US displaced/genocided.
Even if I’m a bit skeptical how “democratic” some of these were (since the prevalent ideology pre enlightenment in europe was that the demos wasn’t actually capable of conducting policy) and how much e.g. germanic things of all things would have influenced central and western european thought that much (especially rince enlightenment philosophers usually referenced ancient greece - which actually didn’t really favour our notion of democracy). I give you that democratic structures did partially exist in Europe.
I’m still a bit baffled that you would consider it ridiculous that native American thought didn’t have any input on the enlightenment over 100 years after europe has discovered
that there are whole human civilizations across the atlantic who have never even heard of Jesus.
these people in that new continent had quite remarkably similar thoughts on liberty and equality as the enlightenment had.
Also: the native Americans were right there, the founding fathers knew of their great law of peace and the US congress has even passed a resolution on how that great law of peace had influenced the US constitution.
Even if I’m a bit skeptical how “democratic” some of these were (since the prevalent ideology pre enlightenment in europe was that the demos wasn’t actually capable of conducting policy) and how much e.g. germanic things of all things would have influenced central and western european thought that much
Yes, goodness me, how silly thinking that Germanic institutions might have influence on Central and Western Europe, which were filled with Germanic-derived states.
(especially rince enlightenment philosophers usually referenced ancient greece - which actually didn’t really favour our notion of democracy).
What.
I’m still a bit baffled that you would consider it ridiculous that native American thought didn’t have any input on the enlightenment over 100 years after europe has discovered
Why would it? Ethnographic studies of Native Americans were not of considerable interest to European philosophers at the time. And certainly not accurate ones.
these people in that new continent had quite remarkably similar thoughts on liberty and equality as the enlightenment had.
… did they? SOME of them practiced democratic forms of governance. But unless you’re going to argue that the rationalist, social-contract style thinking of the Enlightenment was replicated amongst Native American tribes, I don’t really know how much similarity there is in the thinking beyond the commonality of all democratic polities, in Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas.
Also: the native Americans were right there, the founding fathers knew of their great law of peace and the US congress has even passed a resolution on how that great law of peace had influenced the US constitution.
Yes, I am well aware that the Founding Fathers knew about Native Americans and their forms of governance; that has very little to do with the Enlightenment-era ideals that predominated in the thinking and execution of the foundational documents of the USA.
Yes, goodness me, how silly thinking that Germanic institutions might have influence on Central and Western Europe, which were filled with Germanic-derived states.
Wait a second… are you suggesting that prussia could be considered a “germanic” country back then? Do you think they had things in saxony? Lol ^^
What.
Our notion that democracy was spear-headed in athens is highly romanticized.
Why would it? Ethnographic studies of Native Americans were not of considerable interest to European philosophers at the time. And certainly not accurate ones.
Ahem… “Philosophy is when you are uninterested in the biggest anthropological discovery of the last two centuries. The less interest you have, the more philosophic it is.”.
But unless you’re going to argue that the rationalist, social-contract style thinking of the Enlightenment was replicated amongst Native American tribes, I don’t really know how much similarity there is in the thinking beyond the commonality of all democratic polities, in Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas.
Foreign culture is filtered through your own cultural lenses. Ever seen japanese media based on Goethe’s Faust?
Yes, I am well aware that the Founding Fathers knew about Native Americans and their forms of governance;
Wait a second… are you suggesting that prussia could be considered a “germanic” country back then?
Are you saying Prussia isn’t a Germanic-derived state? Do I… do I have to educate you on Christian colonialism in Europe now too?
Do you think they had things in saxony? Lol ^^
No, they had Diets.
Our notion that democracy was spear-headed in athens is highly romanticized.
… okay…?
Ahem… “Philosophy is when you are uninterested in the biggest anthropological discovery of the last two centuries. The less interest you have, the more philosophic it is.”.
Sorry that you were aware of early modern European racism two comments ago, but have seemingly entirely forgotten it now.
What? I thought it was…
This you?
This framing is very cynical, since the european upper class probably got those concepts from the native Americans which the US displaced/genocided.
Because I’m pretty sure this is the third time I’ve mentioned that this is what I’m refuting. It’s getting kind of tedious reminding you of what you just said a few comments ago. Are you even trying, or just keeping up the conversation so you don’t have to confront how monumentally incorrect your statement was?
What an absolutely bizarre idea.
It’s not that outlandish if a bit hyperbolic.
https://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/hconres331.pdf
The point is about the concepts of the European Enlightenment being derived from Native Americans (which is absurd), not that the Founding Fathers specifically understood and owe some debt to Native American forms of governance (which is controversial but mainstream and backed by evidence).
Are you suggesting that the native american tribes couldn’t have had democratic societies? Why no[t?
I guess, you have some reading to do](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy#Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas)
I also suggest David Graeber’s and David Wengrow’s “The dawn of everything”, if you’re interested in the likely roots of US democracy.
No, I’m suggesting that the idea that the European Enlightenment era ideals of democracy were stolen from Native Americans because Europeans were too dumb to look at their own contemporary democratic societies and European history is fucking absurd.
Which contemporary democratic european societies do you mean, exactly? Which ones existed before the enlightenment?
Seriously, read the first few chapters of the dawn of everything. It’s worth it.
Free Communes, guild-run city-states, peasant republics, the Swiss, Slavic Veche, Germanic Things, Diets, Parliaments, the Polish Commonwealth, the Hussites, Jesus fucking Christ.
Even if I’m a bit skeptical how “democratic” some of these were (since the prevalent ideology pre enlightenment in europe was that the demos wasn’t actually capable of conducting policy) and how much e.g. germanic things of all things would have influenced central and western european thought that much (especially rince enlightenment philosophers usually referenced ancient greece - which actually didn’t really favour our notion of democracy). I give you that democratic structures did partially exist in Europe.
I’m still a bit baffled that you would consider it ridiculous that native American thought didn’t have any input on the enlightenment over 100 years after europe has discovered
Also: the native Americans were right there, the founding fathers knew of their great law of peace and the US congress has even passed a resolution on how that great law of peace had influenced the US constitution.
Yes, goodness me, how silly thinking that Germanic institutions might have influence on Central and Western Europe, which were filled with Germanic-derived states.
What.
Why would it? Ethnographic studies of Native Americans were not of considerable interest to European philosophers at the time. And certainly not accurate ones.
… did they? SOME of them practiced democratic forms of governance. But unless you’re going to argue that the rationalist, social-contract style thinking of the Enlightenment was replicated amongst Native American tribes, I don’t really know how much similarity there is in the thinking beyond the commonality of all democratic polities, in Africa, Europe, Asia, and the Americas.
Yes, I am well aware that the Founding Fathers knew about Native Americans and their forms of governance; that has very little to do with the Enlightenment-era ideals that predominated in the thinking and execution of the foundational documents of the USA.
Wait a second… are you suggesting that prussia could be considered a “germanic” country back then? Do you think they had things in saxony? Lol ^^
Our notion that democracy was spear-headed in athens is highly romanticized.
Ahem… “Philosophy is when you are uninterested in the biggest anthropological discovery of the last two centuries. The less interest you have, the more philosophic it is.”.
Foreign culture is filtered through your own cultural lenses. Ever seen japanese media based on Goethe’s Faust?
What? I thought it was…
Are you saying Prussia isn’t a Germanic-derived state? Do I… do I have to educate you on Christian colonialism in Europe now too?
No, they had Diets.
… okay…?
Sorry that you were aware of early modern European racism two comments ago, but have seemingly entirely forgotten it now.
This you?
Because I’m pretty sure this is the third time I’ve mentioned that this is what I’m refuting. It’s getting kind of tedious reminding you of what you just said a few comments ago. Are you even trying, or just keeping up the conversation so you don’t have to confront how monumentally incorrect your statement was?