The share of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents who believe that President Joe Biden’s 2020 election win was not legitimate has ticked back up, according to a new CNN poll fielded throughout July. All told, 69% of Republicans and Republican-leaners say Biden’s win was not legitimate, up from 63% earlier this year and through last fall, even as there is no evidence of election fraud that would have altered the outcome of the contest.
The really shocking thing here is that 31% of Republicans are still aware of reality enough to understand that Biden won legitimately.
Like 70% also believe angels are real…
Apparently decades of No Child Left Behind and removing critical thinking from public education did what republicans wanted it to do
You’re assuming they actually believe what they are saying and are arguing in good faith. That hasn’t been in the Republican playbook since at least Nixon.
Not to defend No Child Left Behind but it was only a 2002 law, the majority of these people are too old to have been in school since its passage.
Normalize questioning random ideas about politics people toss out
But if it wasn’t for that, republicans wouldn’t be getting elected still…
Obviously I didn’t mean the only people who believe this shit is the kids from No Child, mostly because red states were already doing it on a state level.
But there’s enough of them that it’s keeping republicans in office where they wouldn’t be without it.
Very very few problems have a single cause, again, I thought that was so obvious it wouldn’t need to be explained. But here we are…
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Yes but that change affected anyone in school at the time as well. No Child Left Behind touched the schooling of people up to the age of 38. That’s roughly half of Americans. You would need to remove people not of voting age, but the impact is still huge.
It was repealed & replaced in 2015 anyway so it was only in effect for 13 years and over half of states had waivers for it by then anyway. Once again not defending the state of public education or laws passed affecting it, just making sure we all know the facts.
Don’t worry, they’re fixing this by burning books. We’ll be back to the 50’s in no time!
You act like it’s limited to the younger generations of Republicans.
Doesn’t help that they are allowing Trump to run around the country to continue to say he was cheated and that the election was stolen. They are literally waiting until next year to even put him on trial.
Plenty of time for him to cause as much harm as possible.
Those 30% will still vote R, even after knowing that they have been lied to by the republicans.
When republicans voters call others “cucks”, you know it’s all a projection.
They’ve largely stopped using “cuck” as an insult since the high mark of their movement involved a guy wearin’ horns.
Or they’re just embarrassed to admit what they really think.
Are they capable of shame? Seems like they revel in the absolute worst behavior possible.
now do the % of repubs who think the earth is 5,000 years old. or the % that think russia is our ally.
The Republican Party has become a doctrinaire anti-American organization; wholly subservient to the international fascist movement.
Why would any loyal American patriot be a member of it?
The Republicans stand against what America actually is.
The USA is a multicultural society. The Republicans are against that.
The USA is a leader in science; including the understanding of our planet’s climate. The Republicans are against that.
The USA is loyal to its international allies. The Republicans are against that.
The USA is committed to freedom of speech and of the press. The Republicans are against that.
The USA is a leader in technology; including the development of clean energy. The Republicans are against that.
The USA is a secular society, in which people of different religions can meet as equals in the marketplace of ideas. The Republicans are against that.
The USA is a capitalist economy; in which businesses may prosper without having to bend the knee to leaders’ personality-cults or their ideological doctrine. The Republicans are against that.
The USA is an educated society; with free schooling for all, and with some of the best universities in the world. The Republicans are against that.
In all of these ways, the Republicans have endorsed anti-Americanism — opposition to what the USA actually is, its actual strengths and virtues.
Great response
I’m starting to put together citations to go with this list if anyone wants to contribute.
Bold of you to assume they’re capable of reading this.
They’re not reading this. I’d like it if other Americans kept in mind that you can be both patriotic and antifascist.
I’d argue that if you’re patriotic, you must be anti-fascist.
Then it’s urgent that you guys find a way so that there’d be more than two big parties, or the D are going to rot in the same direction as the R have already.
There’s no reason that has to be true, but a multi-party system enabled by ranked-choice or approval voting would be better
Actually there is. I’m just really lazy to write long answers for a change, and after searching for my glasses in panic for 2.5 hours even more.
Ripoblus and Dimoks (TIE Fighter is my favorite game) are both eclectic parties, so actual ideology doesn’t matter much. They flatten many dimensions in such a way that people having not much in common with each other - say, those for legalizing marijuana and those for student debt subsidies, - ally with each other, and their enemies for prohibition and no subsidies respectively do the same.
There is no particular common ideological identity which would make an eclectic party not follow suit of its only competitor turning into brownshirt flatearther Christian Jihadists or whatever, and it only has to be marginally better.
EDIT: I like ranked choice too, only I want to have an option of downvote there. Other than that - sortition is cool. The former solves the problem of only the two biggest parties surviving, the latter solves the problem of the majority always trumping the minority. They are not compatible, so it’s something to decide for every separate problem.
Upvote for Tie Fighter reference, I never caught that before. Is it worth a replay? I loved it when I was a kid but idk if it aged well. (X-wing Alliance aged very well fyi, especially with the XWA Upgrade.)
It’s always worth a replay, the reference is from one of the missions where you bring peace and order and resolve differences by defeating both sides.
IMHO even X-Wing has aged just fine, TIE Fighter even more so. XWA feels not even old, even without hires textures, new models etc.
You’d need radical changes to the constitution. Good luck getting any amendments through today.
It’s scary when there’s an entire echochamber yelling nonsense at the top of their lungs. How is America supposed to recover with this incessant Fox News and even worse OAN propaganda?
The obvious solution is to outlaw intentionally lying in the guise of a news show. Make FOX etc., have to broadcast a banner that says, “THIS IS NOT FACTUAL NEWS THIS IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY,” as they have argued in court.
In addition to this, retractions and corrections need to be more prominent. No more screaming falsehoods for hours and days and then quietly issuing a retraction as a scroll during the low viewership time block.
Make FOX etc., have to broadcast a banner that says, “THIS IS NOT FACTUAL NEWS THIS IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY,"
I mean, that might work, but what we’d get is "THIS IS NOT FACTUAL NEWS THIS IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY 😉 " and there’d be no difference to what we have now.
True, some people still believe the Weekly World News is real and it has such a disclaimer. I would like people who believe Fox News to be considered crackpots of a similar caliber. I think such a disclaimer might accomplish this. At very least it would save us from having to refute their fire-hose of bullshit, as it says right on the screen that it’s bullshit, no outside citation needed.
Either that or it’ll force them to improve their journalistic standards to get rid of the disclaimer. Either way, a win.
Fox would own the fuck out of that.
The left makes us put this banner on here! We know you’re smart people that can make your own choices about what is and is not “entertainment”! Now, for something I don’t find at all entertaining, Biden once again oversteps his authority and …
The left makes us put this banner on here!
That argument might make sense if it wasn’t Fox themselves arguing in court that they aren’t presenting news and can therefore lie without consequence because shows like Tucker Carlson are entertainment.
I understand completely that it makes no sense that their viewers are this stupid, but it also doesn’t change the fact that they are.
Align them with the crazies. If you hold these beliefs then you think the earth is flat. Full stop.
If someone mentions this shit then they obviously believe in hollow earth, lizard people shit. Laugh at them, call them out as laughable and do not treat them as a serious person. They are talking about nonsense and they are children. Treat them as such.
This just in: republicans are fucking insane
If you are a republican in this day and age, given ALL the shit they have done and what they stand for, you are either stupid, evil or both
Republican voters are a different breed. Even with enough evidence to prove Russia was interfering with the 2016 election, Democrats still mostly accepted the win. With even less evidence of any fraud in the 2020 election, the majority of Republicans deny Biden’s legitimacy.
With ZERO evidence. Not “Even less”. There was ZERO evidence of fraud by the Biden campaign and democrats.
And lots of evidence of Republicans committing fraud in 2020, and still they lost.
They take their cues from their politicians who are all cowards. Every Republican politician with even the most basic critical thinking skills understands that Trump did not win and that Trump intentionally broke the law with classified documents.
Instead of acknowledging those facts, they instead are literally willing to destroy Americans’ faith in fair elections and the basic rule of law by spewing lies in an effort to prostrate themselves to Donald Trump and his supporters. They have no fundamental principles anymore. They are literally willing to burn the country down to win.
Democrats still mostly accepted the win
I couldn’t view your link, but yes majority of Democrats did accept it: https://news.gallup.com/poll/197441/accept-trump-legitimate-president.aspx
This includes Biden himself who requested that his party accept the results. https://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/no-trump-electoral-college-challenge-233294
I provided actual poll results and news articles. Not to mention the overriding news of actual indictments handed down by the DOJ.
You provided a tweet of a 10 minute cherry picked montage video.
I think I’m going to go with reality, thank you.
Your polls contradict the actual message, that’s not reality
As a conservative, this is mind boggling to me. In my head I think it’s just a far right crazy conspiracy theory, but between this and the huge amount of support trump gets, I’m just baffled. I’m on the west coast, and none of my friends or family still support Trump or are election deniers.
Maybe the mid west republicans are just 100% trumpers? It’s wild.
Maybe the mid west republicans are just 100% trumpers? It’s wild.
MAGA is basically like a religion out here. They avoid any information that contradicts their belief system and gravitate towards media that reaffirms it. The constant drumbeat of whataboutism coming from trump, fox news, AM radio, etc really has poisoned their brains. Support of trump, embrace of his lies, and hatred of his “enemies”, has become their entire identity.
Back when Trump was President, a friend of mine (who’s a Trump supporter) was arguing with me about whether or not Trump said something.
I did what I always did and checked Google. I quickly found a video of Trump saying the thing and sent it to my friend. He replied that it was fake news.
My friend wasn’t claiming that the video was actually faked or taken out of context. Instead, he was saying that it was fake news because it was hosted on CNN’s servers. He didn’t care what the content was, just whether it was on a right wing outlet’s server or not.
You could have Trump come out and say it to him directly and he wouldn’t believe it anyways. Your friend chooses to believe what they believe the way a fanatic believes in their delusions. It only serves to reaffirm their belief structure, and nothing else. If Trump pulled a 180 tomorrow, these people would simply claim that he has been brainwashed or that he’s a paid imposter, or anything else.
They avoid any information that contradicts their belief system and gravitate towards media that reaffirms it.
Isn’t that the same with twitter, reddit, CNN MSNBC? It’s a more broad media problem. When was the last time most people watched or read any media that directly conflicted with their beliefs?
I watch and read fantasy all the time, but I require it to be entertaining.
This isn’t so much a mystery, but more of a reaping of what was sown.
Right Wing media sources such as Breitbart and Fox News, have been nurturing many lines of thought, mostly in order to fire up the conservative base, versus providing useful information.
When you want your base to be an angry mob, and spend considerable resources to keep them angry, ill informed, but likely to vote, this is what you get.
This is a well trained response.
I mean, isn’t that the media as a whole? The whole media is about outrage, it’s not about reporting news.
I’m pretty conservative, so is my pa, and we used to watch CNN’s news coverage back in the early 00’s. Now, try watching CNN, MSNBC and FOX, it’s all ‘political commentary.’ There’s no news, there’s outrage.
We’ve dimished knowledge into 140 characters with a screenshot attached. No context, no actual reporting or knowledge of the whole situation. Just some quick 1 liners to rile up their base. The republicans have chosen their demi-god because they’ve been losing, but I can’t say that if the dems were losing that they wouldn’t do the same thing.
The republicans have chosen their demi-god because they’ve been losing, **but I can’t say that if the dems were losing that they wouldn’t do the same thing. **
Why do you believe that?
“Both Sides are the Same” rhetoric is a tactic that accomplishes quite a bit. It stops loyal party members from independently evaluating the other platform. It’s an excellent way to get people to not vote. It’s a way to excuse unacceptable behavior within one’s own party.
I am immediately suspicious of any Both sides are the same messaging. If it is believed, all sorts of critical thinking gets pushed off to the side.
The both sides message is particularly insidious because it takes a real criticism and then equates it with something that is potentially much worse. It does nothing but limit options, and breeds nihilistic cynicism and nothing more. The worst part about it is that it is based on an absolute lie: the idea of both sides being the same doesn’t make any fucking sense, because in this world nothing is the same. If it was the same, it wouldn’t need to have a distinction. It’s an argument against progress, and therefore a wholly conservative viewpoint in that it states that rather than choosing the best of the two options to not bother at all. To stay the same, or even revert.
It’s totally dystopian and reminds me of Russian propaganda, which is designed to erode faith in everything, so that the people in power can make the decisions while the people feel helpless.
Why do you believe that?
Because I don’t believe those who vote republican are inherently more evil or stupid than those who vote democrat.
Because I saw the movement Obama made, and although he is much much much better than Trump, he was borderline Demi-god status to the left. Because throughout history, there are evil far left leaders that misled people and far right people that misled people.
Do you think the left in the U.S. are immune to tactics that have worked throughout human history in countries throughout south america, europe, asia and africa?
It stops loyal party members from independently evaluating the other platform. It’s an excellent way to get people to not vote. It’s a way to excuse unacceptable behavior within one’s own party.
Or it tells people that party loyalty is trash, that both parties are capable of good and evil and have good and bad candidates, regardless of the letter by their name.
Saying ‘My political side is different, it is objectively better than the other’ is the problem. The beneficiaries of the division are, as you probably know, the rich. Show me a democrat that doesn’t take rich folks money to help their campaign.
I am immediately suspicious of any Both sides are the same messaging.
Do you think only the right is capable of electing and following bad political candidates?
If it is believed, all sorts of critical thinking gets pushed off to the side.
As I stated above, the ‘my side is objectively better’ rhetoric does that. Thinking that both sides are capable of good things and bad makes you think about and consider which policies each are pushing that’s good and the ones that are bad. Staying dug into your side is what keeps you in an echo chamber.
I’m not American, so I have no emotional attachment to either of your parties. I just see what I see.
There is exactly one party in the US that gerrymanders. There is one party that pushes heavily on voter suppression of non white voters. There is exactly one party that shreds child labor laws. There is exactly one party that strives to strip basic human rights from marginalized groups. One party that seems to attract Nazis.
None of the above is being hyperbolic. All of it is synonymous with one party. This isn’t a comprehensive list.
Now here’s the crux of it: I haven’t named the party. If you and I were talking about some other country, where neither of us had any personal stake, the description I laid out should evoke a sense of “how cartoonishly evil and undemocratic can they possibly be?”.
Why would you ever feel obligated to defend or make excuses for the unconscionable? Are those your personal values, or is that the sort of stuff that you’re supposed just go along with?
There is exactly one party in the US that gerrymanders.
You’re showing how little you know about politics in the US then. Both do, and both constantly debate about which gerrymandered maps they should use.
There is one party that pushes heavily on voter suppression of non white voters.
The republican party pushed for personhood of black people for 200 years. Democrats fought against ending slavery.
There is exactly one party that shreds child labor laws.
My friend lived with his brother and single mother, he was 14 and needed to work to make sure the bills for himself, his mother and brother could be paid. This isn’t the case of every single fight against child labor laws, but it’s not as objective as you’d think. Are you going to tell my friend that it should be illegal for him to work to help his family out?
There is exactly one party that strives to strip basic human rights from marginalized groups.
What rights are you talking about?
One party that seems to attract Nazis.
And one side that attracts communists. Nazi’s tend to be traditional authoritarians, of course they’re gonna be on the right. Communism has killed 100x as many people as Nazism. You singling out one authoritarian group just shows your bias.
None of the above is being hyperbolic
I’ll let you read my responses then you can see how these are exactly hyperbolic and your bias is so prevalent you believe that your values are objective.
The republican party pushed for personhood of black people for 200 years. Democrats fought against ending slavery.
What is the current Republican attitude towards minorities?
Abraham Lincoln ®, whupped the Confederacy so badly that it ceased to exist. That’s a very good thing.
The United States of America whupped Nazi ass so badly that Hitler had to shoot himself in the head. That was a very good thing.
Why does the current Republican party love the Confederacy, and feel very comfortable with a Nazi infestation?
I was appreciative of the earnest discourse until the southern strategy was ignored and you showed your own bias.
Also, even though it does happen on both sides, gerrymandering by the right is more prolific and undermines the balance of power.
The Senate already has disproportionate representation against the will of the populace because of rural states like the Dakotas, etc. (and, furthermore, it controls judiciary appointments).
Then gerrymandering creates an unearned advantage in the house, and thus the electoral College, which puts all three branches in favor of conservatives.
This is what people mean when they criticize the “both sides” argument. Yes, both side are capable of the same evil, but our system does not reflect that potential equally.
Both parties are capable of the same things by definition, but there’s no universal law that keeps them both the same amount of good or bad. If one party continues to push policies that are bad (for whatever criteria of “bad” you’re using), it stacks up and affects their overall average position on things. This process is reversible but it won’t stop itself by default.
Both parties are capable of the same things by definition
Exactly. I’m, in general, against blanket statements saying that one group of people is inherently worth less, is more stupid or malleable that another group of people. Germany fell into fascism, does that mean the German people are inherently worse people and that’s why they followed the evil leader they did? No. The fact that England fought against these fascists, does that mean England is inherently better, good and would never follow an evil leader? No, they committed absurd atrocities throughout their imperialist rule.
If one party continues to push policies that are bad (for whatever criteria of “bad” you’re using), it stacks up
Unfortunately, what’s been considered ‘bad’ is simply things we disagree with. I disagree with most liberal policies, it doesn’t make the other side ‘bad’
idk though like… voter disenfranchisement, election denial, pretty much everything Trump’s done… opposing education, financial irresponsibility, disregard for the environment… some of these are debatable but do you actually like these things? It’s only be worth it if you think their social policies regarding LGBT/race/gender/etc. outweigh all of that. I obviously disagree with that, and I think putting those opinioms above the health of the nation even if you do agree with them is irresponsible and dengerous. Don’t take my word for it though-- don’t listen to what people say, look at what they do. Just go find the most recent legislation passed or behavior observed for both parties and tell me they’re the same. I wish they were, it’s not healthy to only have one party choice because you feel like the other one is insane, but somehow that’s where we are right now.
In light of seeing your fellow conservatives move farther right (and thus, kinda push the definition of the body of conservative beliefs farther right), on what grounds do you still identify as conservative? What does being a conservative mean to you?
(and thus, kinda push the definition of the body of conservative beliefs farther right)
I don’t really agree with this. The republican party shifting doesn’t mean the ideals of conservative ideology changes.
On the other side of the coin, just because democrats are starting to become more socialist, does that mean that liberal ideologies are changing?
I’m still a conservative because I believe in tradition, I believe in small government and a country that abides by the constitution is the best way to govern. I believe in the free market and put more emphasis on a states individuality rather than having a large federal government.
The “other side of the coin” in this instance is a fiction. The Democratic Party is in no meaningful sense of the word becoming “socialist”.
The Democratic Party is in no meaningful sense of the word becoming “socialist”.
They have self proclaimed socialists in office, and I have a self proclaimed communist on my city council.
You’re saying that socialists in this country are fiction because they don’t know about it? I’m confused your stance.
They’re saying that, as a party, it’s absurd to think the democratic party is becoming more socialist. For decades now, it has been a big tent party of not-crazy and stupid assholes. If anything, it moved startlingly rightwards for years as it absorbed more and more not-crazy and stupid assholes from the other side. Every now and then, there is a punctuated moment where single elements of single policies might represent a brief skip leftwards and here and there you have examples of individual members claiming to be socialist, communist, fucking whatever. But it’s foolish to think that’s representative of the party as a whole.
I’ll need any source you can provide to back what you’re saying up. Here is a list of socialists in office, and as you can see, there are more now than any point in history in the U.S.
As a non-american, the idea that the Democrats are becoming more socialist is hilarious. At best, they’re getting closer to the centre (from the right). Lemme know when they start proposing an end to health profiteering and stronger union protections :P
This is not a hostile comment, hats off to you for being able to talk openly about your ideas and hear differening opinions 🎩
Democracies around the world really need more of that.
And socialist countries are far right to communist countries, that’s why we don’t compare our political parties internationally.
There are more socialists currently representing people from the democratic party than ever before, and the party is moving more socialist, those are facts. Are you arguing against that?
I think many are simply arguing against your unconventional use of the term “socialist” to describe politicians who are definitely not socialist.
Well it seems that they have a problem with the democratic party incorrectly using the term socialist. They have been for awhile, they call scandinavian countries socialist when they’re not at all. If some democrats claim they’re socialists, and run on a socialist platform, I’ll call them socialist.
I suspect conservative people like yourself no longer identifying as Republican may be a factor.
I have a couple former republican friends who are still very conservative, but aren’t trumpers and voted libertarian or independent last election.
They do still have a bit of distrust around Jan 6th and criminal allegations because, well, they avoid looking into them deeper, so don’t know who to trust. But they’re not foaming at the mouth.
They love him in the southeast. I’m in VA which is purple and not even in a rural area, and he has tons of support here.
I was behind a truck the other day with a decal covering the back window stating the following:
“Me and my homies would have been stacking bodies by now. – George Washington”
They’re fucking crazy and they’re everywhere around here. It makes my blood boil.
Even just north of y’all in Western MD where I recently vacated from, there are plenty of nutters. MD is seen as a pretty blue state but that’s mostly just Baltimore and Montgomery County balancing out the crazy in the rest of the state. The more rural parts of the state are still full to the brim of your typical Trump wackos.
It’s not just a mid-west thing. I’m in the PNW and I’ve yet to meet a Never Trumper republican.
Yup,
Strangest thing to me is that I know quite a few Asians that immigrated here that are super Trumpers. I just can’t even grasp how.
Also, interestingly enough, I also happen to work in a very right leaning field, and the majority of the republicans here have been very quiet since the Jan 6 incident. There was only one who was pretty outspoken about it, and he quit recently.
Just based on Queens, NY, I think the republicans in NYC capitalized on some of the things Democrats “beat around the bush” or avoided talking about. The Asian American population in NY is very anti-crime, and the dems perceived inaction on Anti-Asian Hate created an opening some I think local republicans capitalized on. Even the current mayor is a former cop.
Now, how they got to be die-hard Trumpers is not something I understand. He did, after all, cause Asian Americans a-lot of grief with his whole “China Virus” BS during the pandemic…
Just based on Queens, NY, I think the republicans in NYC capitalized on some of the things Democrats “beat around the bush” or avoided talking about. The Asian American population in NY is very anti-crime, and the dems perceived inaction on Anti-Asian Hate created an opening some I think local republicans capitalized on. Even the current mayor is a former cop.
Agreed 100%, it seems like empty virtue signalling that the left will back off on if it’s not the ‘right’ minority to defend.
Now, how they got to be die-hard Trumpers is not something I understand. He did, after all, cause Asian Americans a-lot of grief with his whole “China Virus” BS during the pandemic…
I can only speak for my asian community. But him calling it the ‘china virus’ was not a big deal to us. Him calling it the ‘Kung Flu’ will never fail to make me laugh.
Asians tend to be extremely conservative, particularly Chinese immigrants. They grew up in an authoritarian world, and view the progressive policies of the West as antithetical to their own. They don’t care if Trump is a racist, or blames them for the Kung Flu, because he represents their views on what a government should be.
Might be the same reason why Mexicans vote for Republicans as well. As a Mexican I’ve observed that there’s plenty of racism and misogyny still going about, especially among the religious and ignorant crowd.
They cross the rope bridge going over the Rio Grande and then cut the rope once they’re across. The amount of hate I’ve seen Mexican immigrants direct at Mexicans trying to immigrate is mind blowing. So it’s no wonder that they flock to the republican party.
Latinos subscribe heavily to the machismo personality = good, and that any threat against it is a threat to their existence. They are raised religious with heavy incentive on strong family structures, something that conservatives use as a weapon to curry favor.
Yep, I remember seeing my ex brother in law seem upset for half a second at his baby gender reveil party when they popped a balloon and it was pink. The wife noticed and quickly unscrolled her blue parchment saying it was a lie and it was actually a boy. He wasn’t a bad dude but there was definitely machismo there.
Strangest thing to me is that I know quite a few Asians that immigrated here that are super Trumpers. I just can’t even grasp how.
I’m first generation so maybe I can lend another viewpoint here. Obviously there is the fact that they tend to come from more conservative, religious countries, but there’s a lot more.
Asian immigrants tend to have a culture of being studious and working hard. This has led to a lot of success, and even surpassing the white folk in a lot of thriving metrics. We’re told this is because white folk gave us special privileges to keep other minorities in check. The left has fought against protections for asian immigrants rather than treating them as they would other minorities. Affirmative action hurts asians, because asians tend to care more about grades. A lot of us feel we’re being punished because of this.
Remember when the #stopasianhate stuff was going on? That was short lived, because it started to come out that the hate crimes were disproportionately committed by black perpetrators.
We’re a minority when it’s convenient to the left, and thrown away when it’s inconvenient.
Asians also are more strict on immigration, actually almost every legal immigrant population tends to be harsh on illegal immigration.
Asian immigrants tend to be more socially conservative, and align with the right on that, and the right isn’t actively working against the asian community.
That’s a really fair point.
My wife is Asian and I definitely understand the conservative side of many Asian cultures, also the immigration policies as I lived in Asia for almost a decade.
Sometimes it can be hard to see the different viewpoints when you aren’t directly affected. For one reason obviouly, not being Asian myself (mixed but I’m basically white), and two, even having many Asian friends but never actually really discussing politics with them.
I really appreciate the time you took to give some external viewpoints to things.
Yep, they’re still flying Trump flags and hanging Trump signs in the areas of Oregon outside the larger cities.
Is that the only metric?
I voted for him in '16, same with my pa. Does someone have to be a ‘never trumper’ to be reasonable? I’m in the PNW too, I’ve seen a handful of Trump Trucks, but despite being from a more rural area (you know there are a lot of conservative pockets in the PNW), there isn’t this widespread support of Trump, from what I’ve seen.
You must not get out much. Spend any amount of time in WA-3 and you’ll see car dealerships running still running “TRUMP 2020, FUCK INSLEE” on their signs, tons of FJB flags flying from pickups, and knock-off Trump apparel in stores.
You must not get out much.
I’m pretty confident I’m very well traveled around the state, much more than the average Washingtonian.
Spend any amount of time in WA-3
Oooooh so you mean I must not be well traveled in this specific district you’re talking about? Yeah, not that much, but the times I have traveled down that way to portland, the coast or other areas out there is what I was talking about seeing some Trump Trucks.
I do love that sign though, driving down I5 about inslee, that cracks me up every time.
I’m glad you’re easily entertained. That’s not the specific sign I was referring to, though, but thank you for adding additional examples, thus strengthening my point.
but thank you for adding additional examples, thus strengthening my point.
I don’t get why you’re acting like this is a fight you need to win. I said I’m from rural WA and don’t see many Trump Trucks. That’s a fact. You then told me that means I don’t get out much? Which is an absurd conclusion based on one sentence of communication.
I didn’t say there weren’t any trump supporters, look back at my first comment. What I said is it’s baffling to me because that trumper culture isn’t prevelant out here, you’re here saying ‘well if you go to this specific district, in this area, there’s this sign at this dealership’ doesn’t mean there’s a big trump culture in washington.
Sorry for only providing three quick examples instead of listing off everything I see across the PNW daily. Should I keep notes and send you weekly updates so as to prove my point?
I am pretty liberal, but I have a-lot of family members who are republican and live in the midwest and they feel like they’re in the same boat as you.
I do have to wonder where he gets all his support.
He gets his support from the belts. Bible Belt and Rust Belt.
The Bible Belt I can believe, though I am not sure about the Rust Belt. It may have been true in 2016, but I think the 2020 election paints a different picture.
When I think of the Rust Belt, I think of places like Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh and St. Louis. Of those cities, it seems only Missouri is hardcore republican (despite St. Louis’s and Kansas City’s best efforts). Michigan seems to have swung pretty left (though there are definitely still red areas), Pennsylvania voted blue and Wisconsin is on the verge of undoing a-lot of republican gerrymandering. Ohio looks like a red-leaning mixed bag, but it doesn’t strike me as a republican bastion.
Granted, most of these are major battleground states with both parties in almost equal numbers, but their conservative populations don’t seem to be anymore Trump-oriented than other states.
I live in NY as does my father. He was a die hard Trump supporter until a few months ago when he switched to DeSantis - though he might have switched back to Trump. I try not to talk politics with him.
As recently as last year, he was telling me that the Republicans were going to impeach and remove Biden and Kamala and install Trump as President again. I pointed out that the House could definitely impeach, but removal would take two thirds of the Senate - a number the Republicans couldn’t possibly reach. (This was before the midterms.) My father responded that the Democrats would vote along with the Republicans.
Yes, my father honestly believed that the Democrats would decide to ditch a Democratic President and Vice President so that Trump could come back to power. He was willing to make a bet that this would happen. I didn’t take the bet only because I knew he’d either deny ever making the bet or would try to gaslight me what the bet actually was about.
It’s baffling to me, every poll I see like this I’m just confused and sad
Yeah, it is very disheartening to see. I still remember going back and watching previous debates before Trump, and they were all so civil! Even in the most heated moments, the candidates were actually discussing ideas and policy!
I cannot wait for Trump to fade away from the political scene. It’s just so sad to see how he turns everything into a debate about him.
Yeah, it is very disheartening to see. I still remember going back and watching previous debates before Trump, and they were all so civil! Even in the most heated moments, the candidates were actually discussing ideas and policy!
Honestly, I think that was a huge problem and why the right got pushed so far out there.
McCain and Romney were incredibly civil reasonable candidates. But they got attacked constantly, magazine covers of McCain having sharpened teeth calling him a war monger, Biden yelled at everyone that Romney wanted to put black people back in chains.
The republicans saw this and were like ‘wtf, no they’re reasonable, why are they getting attacked?’ then Trump comes along and he gets (rightfully) attacked, and the republicans were numb to it. For 15 years, as long as I can remember, every republican candidate was trashed by the media, and called racist, sexist everything-ist, that once someone who actually fit that bill came along, the republicans were numb to it.
Don’t be fooled, the 2004, 2008 and 2012 elections weren’t civil, despite most candidates being reasonable.
I actually agree with your assessment, though I was specifically referring to the debates, not the elections cycles themselves.
The democrats (and the left in general) had a propensity for hyperbole that labeled McCain and Romney as dire threats to democracy. At the time, I think thought of this as a viable tactic to win the election (in a way not too dissimilar from LBJ’s “Daisy” campaign ad against Goldwater). However, it essentially turned them into the “Boy Who Cried Wolf” when Trump came around, because huge swaths simply refused to believe them.
So, I do actually agree that democrats helped to create Trump, or at least helped to create an environment that allowed him to rise. How we stop Trump now though is beyond me.
Maybe now. The Republicans in my family left the party after 2016. Granted, they’re still on my shit list for voting against LGBT stuff but at least they’ve recognized the error of their ways.
What anti-lgbt stuff did they vote against?
They voted for the Party that hates gay people. That’s enough for me.
Hahah, see how quickly you back down from your comment?
‘well, I lied before, but they might as well have!! Therefore, SHITLIST!’
Go ahead, tell me who they voted for that they’re on your shit list because they vote differently than you do.
I didn’t back down. They voted for Trump in 2016. The GOP platform is explicitly anti gay. Had my step dad voted for Trump in 2020 he wouldn’t be invited to my gay wedding because Republicans want to overturn Obergafell.
I don’t care who you vote for as long as they support gay rights.
I didn’t lie. You just can’t read.
I’m a single issue voter and that issue is queer rights.
You did. You literally said your parents are on your shit list because they voted against lgbt policies. Then I asked about those policies, and you said that they actually didn’t do that…?
They voted for Trump in 2016
Trump was the first pro-gay marriage president that had ever been elected.
Had my step dad voted for Trump in 2020 he wouldn’t be invited to my gay wedding because Republicans want to overturn Obergafell.
Do you agree with every single policy every single democrat has ever discussed?
I don’t care who you vote for as long as they support gay rights.
“I don’t care who you vote for as long as it’s someone who agrees with me”
I didn’t lie. You just can’t read.
My bad, you didn’t say “they’re still on my shit list for voting against LGBT stuff”?
I’m a single issue voter and that issue is queer rights.
And anyone that doesn’t think exactly like you and vote exactly like you is on your shit list?
Lol, it’s cute you think queer rights is just a simple disagreement.
I’m sure you agree with every single conservative plank when you vote.
Not sure what your “gotcha” is here. I had family who voted for him. They opened their eyes to the bs.
If someone votes for politicians with anti-queer policies then they need to deal with the consequences just like the rest of us do.
I don’t have to associate with anyone and there isn’t a rational argument against queer human rights.
Let’s say you were my sibling and you plan on voting for Trump (or whoever the GOP nom will be). If you did then you wouldn’t get an invite to my wedding. It’s that simple. You had shown you don’t support gay rights. Once you, as my sibling, abandon family for politics then you cut out.
Most midwest Republicans are actually populists, and populism is step one on the track to fascism. They have been used and abused by large corporations killing off local economies and greater macroeconomic forces which have determined that their labor is no longer worth a living wage. It’s quite sad actually, but at this point the damage has been done. There’s nothing left for reasonable people to do but get out.
Coming from the southeast, definitely still a lot of Trump banners and bumper stickers, though less so now. I expect them to be more common as the election gets closer.
Hard to call it far right anymore. Conspiracy theorists and hate are more or less the norm in conservative circles, so far as I can tell.
Conspiracy theorists and hate are more or less the norm in conservative circles, so far as I can tell.
I don’t think they’re conservative. I think republicans have given up on being conservative, and just now fight culture war and spend as much if not more than the dems.
I’ve been trying to be diligent about not conflating republicans and conservatives anymore, they haven’t been conservative in awhile. Republicans have been overwhelmingly blindly following Trump, conservatives haven’t.
Stop calling them conservatives. This level of ultranationalism has fascist written all over it.
the conservative party is gone. What’s left is a theocratic loony bid. Anyone voting for that shit is completely out of the loop or doesn’t care about the negative long term consequences to their continued science and data denial and constant conspiracy theory horseshit.
Agreed, my only hope is that Trump will absolutely fall so hard that there is no way people can support him still (at this point, it may take his death, but even then, what conspiracies would come from that?), and the ‘right’ sees a series of defeats that they are forced to re-brand, become more liberal on social issues and actually try to be the conservative party of fiscal responsibility.
the conservative party of fiscal responsibility.
The republican party has never been about fiscal responsibility. Every time the economy crashes, it’s the result of republican fiscal policies of spend like crazy but lower taxes so we can’t afford to pay for it. The only thing republicans are “conservative” about is social issues like should LGBTQ people be allowed to live.
Every time the economy crashes, it’s the result of republican fiscal policies of spend like crazy
Our last recession, the great recession, was mainly caused by clintons repeals of housing regulations.
Clinton repealed necessary regulations of the glass steagall act
Clinton force subprime loans in the name of equity
Sounds like you just have a bias and don’t actually know anything about economics.
Yeah I’m telling you. There is an older crowd that it doesn’t matter what you say to them, they run on hate and they’ve been given a lot of fuel.
Remember the 2000 election? That was a close one. One county in one state with a 500 vote difference. 2020 were 5 states with 10k votes in Arizona to 180k votes in Pennsylvania to Biden. If they pulled 13k votes for out of Trump’s ass for AZ and GA he would of still would of lost the election. They key to the White House is the rust belt. Republicans are too dumb to understand this.
So, 69% of Republicans are traitors to the Republic. That’s what I’m hearing.
How many of those 70% knows it’s a lie, but went along with it. There’s a reason why I support rejecting Republicans and I would go as far as not funding red states along with boycotting businesses residing from those states.
That would backfire spectacularly. We must always keep in mind that Republican policies keep their citizens in a state of disinformation and dilapidation. If your life is already miserable, denied education and resources so as to never escape what few jobs are left, you’ll latch onto anyone promising salvation. That is the whole reason we saw J6ers go as far as they did.
The long road has the best chances of keeping the country in one piece. Dispelling falsehoods piece by piece, enacting programs that modernize not just infrastructure but local economies as well. Bring the success of the coasts inward to lands exploited and abandoned by corporations and their elected goons. As difficult as it sounds, we’re looking at another reconstruction era for those kneecapped by decades of Republican control.
I also support the rising tides raise all boats approach. There is so much hate for these poor, white, uneducated, disenfranchised swaths of middle America. It is too easy to just say they deserve what they get, instead of dragging them (kicking and screaming I might add) into the 21st century. Even if many of them are a lost cause, we shouldn’t be so keen on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I see no realistic solution that does not include fighting Republicans for the hearts and minds of the average working class American. This is why Democrats continue to struggle even with overwhelming statistical advantages. The corporatist wing of the Democrats continue to block the kind of New Deal, Social Democracy, Keystone policies that actually win elections.
You change the material conditions of millions of people, and see how fast they jump on board. Most people cannot see the forest through the trees when they are drowning in the inevitability of automation and skilled labor killing their livelihood. We need to force the Democrats to take bold action to better the lives of the whole country, or we will suffer the consequences of political inaction. It starts with the local first. The bottom up, grassroots approach can work. It just takes time, determination, and a desire to refocus the agenda away from culture war naval gazing and onto real world solutions.
Keep fighting the good fight!
Always has been.
Does no one remember 2016-2020? The whole time people said Trumps win was a sham.
Are those people traitors too?
I’m not saying Biden’s win was bullshit, but I swear no one can remember past 30 minutes ago
It’s not the same. Most people calling the 2016 election a sham will admit that Trump did technically win by the rules as written, but also think that those rules are bullshit because they allowed a multi-million person majority to be shut out in favor of a malevolent moron. The people saying Biden lost are saying he literally cheated and that there’s a conspiracy of thousands of government employees collaborating to break the rules and subvert the will of the people; that the multi-million majority literally doesn’t exist. This is just as disingenuous as comparing the top secret documents that Trump hid to the ones that Biden and Pence handed over immediately on request.
did ANY of those people try a coup?
Yes.
Remember when liberals took over parts of a city and created CHAZ/CHOP?
Oh no people in a park. Not at all the same as trying to overturn an election.
Also I remember when trumpets stormed the wa govs mansion.
People in a park?
Way to really under sell the destruction that happened there, but I guess that’s exactly what the democrats do.
They took over a large portion of a city, and people got shot. They wouldn’t let police in and let people die. They destroyed the buildings in there and innocent people had to leave who didn’t want to be involved.
There was deaths, arson and destruction
But sure. People in a park.
large portion? dude it was a park. and not even the whole park. ohh scary.
They took over a portion of the city. 6 city blocks.
Did you really gaslight yourself to believe it was just a park?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53224445
This shows how large it was and how just people got shot
Some of ‘em did burn cars and buildings, I assume they would’ve fallen in line for storming Capitol Hill too.
Never underestimate those who will get violent because their preferred candidate didn’t win.
One side did and one side you’re just saying that the could have.
What’s the difference between those two?
On another note: What a username
👏 Golf Clap 👏
Never said there wasn’t a difference lol, nor would I.
But you did and now you’re straight up lying.
…uh, okay?
blame the left all you want it was trump and his supporters who attempted a coup.
…why the fuck would I blame ‘the left’ for Trump’s attempted coup?
Still no evidence Trump supported a coup
Also a coup that just followed the red velvet rope around? Yeah scary shit
And coming dangerously close to our elected officials while chanting they wanted to hang people with the gallows they built outside. And remember people died there. And there’s tons of evidence trump led it, why do you think he’s getting charged for it.
No one was in the building
An angry person smashing the window of a Starbucks is not a fucking threat to the Republic, dude.
People burning down cars very well could be, if some lunatic spent some time brainwashing ‘em.
“If. Could be.”
Didn’t happen though…
…again, I never said it did. Do you have poor reading comprehension?
If wishes were fishes I could feed the world, buddy. There’s a reason that left wing agitation is a threat to windows and right wing agitation is a threat to the Republic. It’s the difference between an insurrectionist traitor and an angry child.
Yes, that reason is that Republicans let a lunatic come into power, and he was able to consolidate his insane voterbase and stir ‘em up into a frenzy.
The small insignificant difference between the two is that those people didn’t try to break into congress and kill the people who disagreed
To be fair though, a few Dem supporters do scream quite a bit about how much they’d love to kill all conservatives. There were quite a few of those crazies demanding his head during the post-election drama too.
Not saying that Dem voters did actually do that, but I wouldn’t put it past some of ‘em either.
A few anti-Republican individuals (not necessarily even Democrats) saying some shit is nothing compared to leading members of the Republican party calling for violence. The shit they say is literally the position of the party itself.
Again, I did say there was a difference. Also, these were most certainly Democrats.
Can we call them neo-confederates already?
Pre Antebelum Republicans.
This doesn’t mean much when large swaths of them believe the earth is flat, the moon landing was faked, slavery helped black people, etc. Asking them their opinions on reality is like asking an amoeba how it feels about NFTs. The levels of insane & stupid coming from these people just means their thoughts & opinions are irrelevant.
They may be insane, but they’re insane AND active voters. They’re also heavily armed.
While their thoughts and opinions are irrelevant their votes are absolutely relevant. Their susceptibility to basic, low-effort manipulation can unfortunately affect us all.
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If they vote then their delusions are very much relevant.
The same people believe an imaginary being lives in the sky, that aliens are always visiting Earth, and that dinosaurs never existed.
Maybe we should start saying the dinosaurs were aliens…
So birds are aliens! Mind blown!!
It’s a variety of topics I find denial of reality to be increasing. Climate change science, including the history of how long ago people like Carl Sagan made it a widespread topic. Medical science with pandemics, nonsensical views on how vaccines work. Wild views about how windmills work and interact with the environment.
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