The whole schtick about ‘counts as a raven’ is a bit whack, because those terms aren’t really hardcore defined. Those are colloquial terms and depending on where you are in the world and who you’re talking to, colloquial terms may refer to different species altogether. And when you put different languages into the mix, seemingly equivalent terms may suddenly agglomerate different species.
When you say raven, I as a European, think of the rather huge Corvus corax. But there are other big corvids in other parts of the world, that may qualify for the word.
When I say the equivalent word for raven or crow in my native language (German), it very much depends on the bird knowledge of the person I’m talking to, whether they understand this to mean a specific species or just a general term for all black birds of the Corvidae family. Then some people distinguish ravens and crows, even tough there are 3 species that would qualify as a crow, one of which would be called a rook in English.
That’s why scientific names are useful.
That being said: you’ve got a beautiful picture of a jackdaw there. (Corvus monedula)
Edit: Crap. I just now read the comment thread about “Here’s the thing” and feel like I just played into that. Gotta read up about that now.
Yeah as a kid i thought raven were much bigger and had orange beaks. Rather late I learned that ravens are usually just large crows. Personally, I don’t care much but at least try to learn and use the proper names of things. At least in German, using Krähe seems to be a safe bet in any case.
Here’s the thing.
You can probably get away with calling such black birds “Krähe” if you’re talking to people with no further knownedge about the birdie-birds.
As soon as people know a little more than that, they will find that a bit odd. If you call a Raven/Kolkrabe/Corvus corax a ‘Krähe’, that will be a bit weird. Those are considerably larger and overall more majestic creatures, so calling them crows, just doesn’t cut it.
But they are also more rare and avoid human settlements more than crows.
The three usual crow species in Germany on the other hand are all basically the same size, and sometimes hard to tell apart.
They all carry the term ‘crow’ in their colloquial German name.
They are:
Aaskrähe/Carrion Crow/Corvus corone
Also called Rabenkrähe, just to add to the confusion. A medium sized, all black bird with a fairly strong beak.
Nebelkrähe/Hooded Crow/Corvus cornix
Almost identical to Corvus corone, but easily distinguished, by it’s gray coat, instead of their pure black feathers.
Saatkrähe/Rook/Corvus frugilegus
Also completely black, except for the base of the beak and the featherless area around the beak. Younger birds don’t have that though and look almost identical to Corvus corone.
All three of those have sucessfully adapted to live close to humans and can often be found even in big cities.
(I’ll deliberately exclude the Alpenkrähe/Pyrrhocorax pyrrhocorax here, because it only lives in a small and remote region, though that one actually has a red/orange beak)
Then there’s the Dohle/Jackdaw/Corvus monedula. That is a bit smaller than the crows, also has some more grayish areas (though usually a darker gray than Corvus cornix). As it completely lacks the “Krähe” part in its German name, people might also find it weird to call it Krähe.
So you see, even though they all belong to the genus ‘Corvus’, not all members of that genus are typically called crows. On the other hand, the above mentioned Alpenkrähe/Pyrrhocorax pyrrhocorax carries the “krähe” in its name, even though it’s a whole different genus, and funnily enough there also exists the Alpendohle/Pyrrhocorax graculus (yellow beak) in the same genus but suddenly borrowing the -dohle part in its name. They are still part of the familiy of corvids (scientific name Corvidae) but that family also includes birds that are never called crows like the Elster/magpie/Pica pica or the Eichelhäher/Eurasian jay/Garrulus glandarius and also very colorful species in different parts of the world (especially tropics).
That should suffice to show, that there’s no good consistency between the colloquial naming and scientific taxonomy.
Not surprising at all, considering how colloquial language has evolved way before scientific classification and doesn’t really have a need to be as precise, scientific classification has also been subject to change as new methods gave us a better understanding.
All that being said, I won’t fault you, if you consider jackdaws to be ‘basically crows’, just be prepared to be corrected by bird nerds.
(Including myself, although I’m just an amateur with a particular fondness for birds that are ‘basically crows’)
Cheers! I appreciate the small insight into the names that are common to people with some knowledge about these different types.
So far, I might have a chance to name Dohle, Nebekrähe correctly and maybe have a good chance of picking Rabe, rather than Krähe due to its size, and being somewhat right about that.
I’m always thankful if someone can tell me right away what things are called.
Haha thanks for preventing history from repeating itself on Lemmy. I shouldn’t be surprised that there’s already drama behind stating that jackdaws are, essentially, crows…
It was one of those things that became almost obligatory. On any thread where someone mentioned jackdaws or crows, someone would say last say “Here the thing…” If not the whole tirade. It got to be pretty tiresome.
Yeah I can imagine how quickly that got old when tens of comments are just that very same spiel. But still I wonder how I’ve missed that since I’ve spent quite a bit of time on reddit and really enjoyed reading up on these major events of reddit-history.
![[OC] Blue Eyed Crow](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f2bc5894-13b1-43dc-87a9-e6d0a575af50.jpeg){kind=link}
Probably a jackdaw. According to wikipedia this still counts as a raven, therefore as a crow!
Shot in a harbour in northern NL.
Here’s the thing…
Yep definitely a jackdaw.
The whole schtick about ‘counts as a raven’ is a bit whack, because those terms aren’t really hardcore defined. Those are colloquial terms and depending on where you are in the world and who you’re talking to, colloquial terms may refer to different species altogether. And when you put different languages into the mix, seemingly equivalent terms may suddenly agglomerate different species.
When you say raven, I as a European, think of the rather huge Corvus corax. But there are other big corvids in other parts of the world, that may qualify for the word. When I say the equivalent word for raven or crow in my native language (German), it very much depends on the bird knowledge of the person I’m talking to, whether they understand this to mean a specific species or just a general term for all black birds of the Corvidae family. Then some people distinguish ravens and crows, even tough there are 3 species that would qualify as a crow, one of which would be called a rook in English.
That’s why scientific names are useful. That being said: you’ve got a beautiful picture of a jackdaw there. (Corvus monedula)
Edit: Crap. I just now read the comment thread about “Here’s the thing” and feel like I just played into that. Gotta read up about that now.
Haha Clichées sind dafür da erfüllt zu werden.
Yeah as a kid i thought raven were much bigger and had orange beaks. Rather late I learned that ravens are usually just large crows. Personally, I don’t care much but at least try to learn and use the proper names of things. At least in German, using Krähe seems to be a safe bet in any case.
Ok, I’ll do it again:
Here’s the thing. You can probably get away with calling such black birds “Krähe” if you’re talking to people with no further knownedge about the birdie-birds. As soon as people know a little more than that, they will find that a bit odd. If you call a Raven/Kolkrabe/Corvus corax a ‘Krähe’, that will be a bit weird. Those are considerably larger and overall more majestic creatures, so calling them crows, just doesn’t cut it. But they are also more rare and avoid human settlements more than crows. The three usual crow species in Germany on the other hand are all basically the same size, and sometimes hard to tell apart. They all carry the term ‘crow’ in their colloquial German name.
They are:
Aaskrähe/Carrion Crow/Corvus corone Also called Rabenkrähe, just to add to the confusion. A medium sized, all black bird with a fairly strong beak.
Nebelkrähe/Hooded Crow/Corvus cornix Almost identical to Corvus corone, but easily distinguished, by it’s gray coat, instead of their pure black feathers.
Saatkrähe/Rook/Corvus frugilegus Also completely black, except for the base of the beak and the featherless area around the beak. Younger birds don’t have that though and look almost identical to Corvus corone.
All three of those have sucessfully adapted to live close to humans and can often be found even in big cities.
(I’ll deliberately exclude the Alpenkrähe/Pyrrhocorax pyrrhocorax here, because it only lives in a small and remote region, though that one actually has a red/orange beak)
Then there’s the Dohle/Jackdaw/Corvus monedula. That is a bit smaller than the crows, also has some more grayish areas (though usually a darker gray than Corvus cornix). As it completely lacks the “Krähe” part in its German name, people might also find it weird to call it Krähe.
So you see, even though they all belong to the genus ‘Corvus’, not all members of that genus are typically called crows. On the other hand, the above mentioned Alpenkrähe/Pyrrhocorax pyrrhocorax carries the “krähe” in its name, even though it’s a whole different genus, and funnily enough there also exists the Alpendohle/Pyrrhocorax graculus (yellow beak) in the same genus but suddenly borrowing the -dohle part in its name. They are still part of the familiy of corvids (scientific name Corvidae) but that family also includes birds that are never called crows like the Elster/magpie/Pica pica or the Eichelhäher/Eurasian jay/Garrulus glandarius and also very colorful species in different parts of the world (especially tropics).
That should suffice to show, that there’s no good consistency between the colloquial naming and scientific taxonomy. Not surprising at all, considering how colloquial language has evolved way before scientific classification and doesn’t really have a need to be as precise, scientific classification has also been subject to change as new methods gave us a better understanding.
All that being said, I won’t fault you, if you consider jackdaws to be ‘basically crows’, just be prepared to be corrected by bird nerds. (Including myself, although I’m just an amateur with a particular fondness for birds that are ‘basically crows’)
Cheers! I appreciate the small insight into the names that are common to people with some knowledge about these different types.
So far, I might have a chance to name Dohle, Nebekrähe correctly and maybe have a good chance of picking Rabe, rather than Krähe due to its size, and being somewhat right about that.
I’m always thankful if someone can tell me right away what things are called.
Okay, this isn’t Reddit, no one needs to say “Here’s the thing…”
Alright, but who said that?
Reddit name was Unidan. Here’s a non-Reddit article about it.
Haha thanks for preventing history from repeating itself on Lemmy. I shouldn’t be surprised that there’s already drama behind stating that jackdaws are, essentially, crows…
It was one of those things that became almost obligatory. On any thread where someone mentioned jackdaws or crows, someone would say last say “Here the thing…” If not the whole tirade. It got to be pretty tiresome.
Yeah I can imagine how quickly that got old when tens of comments are just that very same spiel. But still I wonder how I’ve missed that since I’ve spent quite a bit of time on reddit and really enjoyed reading up on these major events of reddit-history.
Google “jackdaw Reddit” and I bet you get a lot of “here’s the thing” comments