I have yet to find any dealership where the EV specialist knows anything about EVs and isn’t an asshole. I’ve been browsing cars for over a month now, and 99% of car dealers have one of two things:
- A guy that knows nothing about EVs, but thinks he does.
- A guy that knows things about EVs, but will outright lie to you.
Sometimes this applies to the car itself - sure, it’s got the preheat. Oh you want it in writing? Okay it doesn’t have the preheat, I admit it.
More often this applies to the tax rebates. Hyundai dealers in Connecticut were illegally applying the state and federal EV credit to cars above 50k MSRP, and when called out on it are just like “c’mon, you’ll get it.” Like dude, you’re ASKING me to defraud the IRS?
Today, I dealt with these assclowns: 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E Select (autohausinc.com)
“Qualifies for up to $7500 in tax credits.”
No, it doesn’t. The used EV credit is for 25k and below. This is 27.5. It will not get a dollar. I talked to them about this… and got willful denial every step of the way, to the point that I showed them the IRS policy, pointed out the exact wording, and told them no one on earth would be eligible for it, to which they kept telling me “not all buyers are qualified.” I’m like, no one can get a dollar back from the government for that car. Take that off your website.
The response? " Without an application we cannot answer if you will personally qualify, but we know for a fact there are credits available for our car. I apologize if you feel mislead."
I’m just so frustrated. It shouldn’t be this hard to find a worthwhile used EV under 25k or a new EV under 50k, but everywhere in Connecticut it seems the dealerships play it up and mark the new MSRPs over 50k and the used EVs around 28-33k, and almost all of them then still act like you’d still get the rebates. I’m happy to be smarter than that, but I feel sorry for all the people in Connecticut who will fall prey to the assholes at Hyundai dealerships and used car dealerships in this state.
Salesmen not knowing anything is not unique to EVs. I’ve purchased 5 Audis and 2 VWs from dealerships and with the exception of one guy (who was a specialist shop/dealer combo primarily dealing in VAG diesels) every time has had me giving the sales person a lecture on their own product.
Guy who I bought the VR6 Atlas from told me “I’d put premium fuel in it, especially in the summer”. Which is wrong on so many levels I didn’t even bother to correct him.
Once I was on a road trip and my A4 started knocking and the nearest Audi dealership was 200miles away, but the city I was in had a VW dealer. I had to argue with the front desk for like 15 minutes that the A4 had the same engine as half the cars on their lot before a mechanic came out and was like “yeah I can look at it” and ending up changing a leaking fuel injector seal because, shocking turn of events, they had the part number in stock.
It’s not new with EV’s, but I think it’s exacerbated by EVs
Most salesmen have driven a variety of ICE vehicles and can easily make up plausible-sounding things to say. Most are unfamiliar with EVs so have no idea what is reasonable and what is ridiculous.
My favorite thing salesmen have made up so far is that the F-150 Lightning takes 18 hours to charge, and can’t fast charge — that’ll be coming in the 2025 model year trucks.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the incentive structure is different for EVs than it is for ICE. With telsa rolling in and EVs being requested, commissions may be lower.
Way to sell the Lightning. How desirable. Lol
Yeah. A lot of dealers don’t want to sell EVs.
Very much so. I bought my first car in 2004 and every car since I’ve known considerably more about the car than they do. Literally by reading the manufacturers brochure and spec sheet.
…had the part number in stock…
I had a hearty laugh at this one. I envisioned that situation perfectly.
I agree that some dealers aren’t familiar with combustion engines, either. I was really disappointed how little a jeep dealer knew about the wrangler 4xe. Totally could have sold us on it had he shown us the trick to its acceleration.
I had a terrible experience trying to buy a Passat TDI. Salesman knew zero about the car. Didn’t even glow it when it was 15F in the middle of winter.
Yeah I consider TDI’s to be enthusiast type cars in the North American market. Most people have no idea what they are. Mine was the Q7 with the 3.0. It was push button and you would depress the brake and press start and the glow plug light on the dash would illuminate from 0.5 to 2 seconds depending on temperature and then it would turn over.
I’d agree. But I made an appointment to see that specific Passat TDI. The salesman should at least have gone to the service department and gotten the CPO inspection report and familiarize himself with the basics. He didn’t even know anything about the DSG or when it was last serviced. Just zero basic knowledge of the vehicle. I then went to the Chevy dealer to look at a diesel Cruze with are even more a niche vehicle. I have only ever seen 1 besides mine. He had all the basic specs and was able to answer all my questions.
Glow it?
On most diesels, you need to turn the key to run then wait for the glow plugs to warm up. There is a light on the dash that will turn off when they are warm and you can then start the engine/
Is it just that the car doesn’t need it. (Sensors/computer will adjust injectors)
What’s different about summer?
Octane rating refers to the fuel’s resistance to detonation. There is no difference in power per unit volume in 85 vs 93 octane fuel. The salesman believes in a common misconception that higher octane means higher power, but this is not how fuel works. His “summer” comment likely was in reference to the fact that warmer air produces less power than colder air. Living in Phoenix where daytime temps over concrete in the mid 120’s is common, this can be a noticeable difference. He was saying to run higher octane to make up for the power loss.
What makes this comment hilariously wrong is that you would actually want to run higher octane in colder temperatures, not warmer. Hot air has the effect of increasing the density altitude, that is, it makes the air less dense. The less dense the air is, the less air is available for the engine which means it won’t be able to increase the fuel-to-air ratio high enough to knock anyway. This is why you can run lower octane fuel at very high altitudes, its common to see 83 octane pumps in the Rockies.
There are some engines which will make noticeably more power on higher octane but can run on lower octane. These are typically high performance turbo charged engines and the ECU’s are basically programmed to push timing and AFR as far as they can until the car begins to knock.
The Atlas VR6 is already running at an 11:1 compression ratio and is rated for 87 per VW. People have actually pulled the timing logs on the VR6 to check if the engine is able to identify 93 octane fuel and the answer is yes, it can, but the difference is maybe 5 horsepower in the best conditions, which is about what you’d expect given the engine’s characteristics.
I run premium gas just to avoid carbon fouling on my direct injection engines and I put more roadtrip (interstate) miles on in the summer so I tend to run premium gas then. Rev it up nice when it’s warmed up for a little bit of a nice Italian tune up.
So they may not be totally full of beans.
I doubt this makes a difference. Like the previous commenter said, it’s about knock resistance.
You’re probably wasting your money on premium gas. Unless your vehicle’s owners manual specifically says that it requires high-octane fuel, as AlphaThree explained above, there is no advantage to running premium gas. I know, it’s a hard concept to grasp because we have been inundated with marketing BS from the oil companies for YEARS…
It has been studied extensively that direct injection engines benefit from either using high quality premium fuel or using fuel additives like jettronic to avoid walnut blasting.
I’ve opened up many 2.0 TSI of multiple generations in my time at VW/Audi and have seen first hand. That’s why I bought my A4 Allroad. It has multiport injection and that cleans the valves (especially with nice fuel as I stated). My wife’s Tiguan is not so lucky.
If you have studies, please cite them, but sweeping statements about big oil don’t do it for me.
Here’s Consumer Reports: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/fuel-economy-efficiency/top-tier-gasoline-worth-the-extra-price-a7682471234/#:~:text=The results showed that on,chamber than Top Tier gasoline.
I follow this subreddit, as I’ve been ready for an EV for a couple years. I swear I’m not here to troll with my ICE rants.
I’ve only had turbo cars for the last 20+ years, and it’s amazing how much more power they make with 91-93 octane compared to 87 octane. The extra mpg on premium offsets the cost, with the benefit of driving further between refills. Altitude makes the difference even more pronounced.
On a related note, it’s amazing how well Saab in particular can take advantage of added ethanol compared to VW. My previous Saab made seriously more calibrated butt-dyno hp when running e25-e35 compared to e10 (35% ethanol was as far as I was willing to go with the stock injectors). My current VW doesn’t show similar improvement (I assume the VW fuel map/ecu has much narrower limits, or that I’ve hit the limit of the injectors to deliver the extra fuel required). Again, altitude can be a huge factor; I’d think non-turbo cars would REALLY shine when fed more ethanol (oxygen) when the car can’t get it from the ambient air and the engine can’t force-feed more air.
So is it fair to say engines that require higher octane fuel are not designed as well as engines that run fine on lower octane fuel since they can’t figure out how to run without knocking on the lower octane fuel?
I can see how you would think that, but not really. It’s more about the manufacturer goal. High performance engines are almost always going to be tuned for the highest octane available. This is so they can have the most aggressive timings. Forced induction engines most often require high octane fuel or will make significantly more power on higher octane fuel (assuming they have the appropriate tune).
Best example is the VW 2.0T EA888 engine. It is rated for 87 on VW cars but 91 on Audis and Porsches. Same engine, different tunes to meet the expectations of different customers.
Thank you for the detailed explanation.
My VW 2.0t is rated for 91 octane (2012 German-made CC), and I thought all of the 2.0t engines were tuned for premium fuel. A turbo that isn’t tuned for 91 octane seems like a wasted opportunity. (and you don’t really save money by running cheaper lower octane fuel, as you get lower mpg when the engine timing has to compensate for the lower octane)
I agree. They switched the minimum rating to 87 on the 4 cylinder TSFI’s a few years ago. For the GLI/GTI, I’ve heard they put a note in the manual with an asterisk that says “advertised power number achieved on 93 Octane”. The Golf R I believe still says 91 minimum (thank god).
Gasoline is sold by volume, not weight. So due to expansion in a liquid as warm molecules move away from each other, you get less fuel from a warm gallon pumped in the summer than a cool gallon pumped in the fall.
Mazda had to do some clever engineering to get those engines rated to run on 87 at all lol. They some trick with the exhaust gases to lower the temperature inside the combustion chamber and prevent detonation. The SkyActiv engines might be the highest compression engines currently produced that can run on 87. I bet there’s a website somewhere that tracks that.
I wonder if that’s related to the clatter for 30 seconds or so when it starts up. It almost sounds like a diesel. I’ve read it’s due to heating up the pre-cat in startup in the skyactive engines.
If you go over to askcarsales, they’ll tell you that car guys are rarely good salesman, that deep product knowledge isn’t necessary to sell cars, and that sales skills are all you really need. And apparently they’re right if customers keep buying cars from people who know less about them than they do.
We buy cars from them because the dealership lobby forces us to. I’d love to order direct from Audi’s website, but alas, I have to go talk to Chad for 3 hours instead.
Went to look at used Audis once. When I asked if one of the A4s had Quattro, the salesperson responded that Audi didn’t make any Quattros for that specific year. I think it was a 2005.
I was about to say the same thing about this not being unique to EVs. When I buy a car I know what I want, I’ve already researched the vehicle, and I find a dealer that has what I want on their lot. I go there already knowing which vehicle I want and I’m ready to buy.
There’s been more than once when I’ve bought an ICE vehicle, and the sales person is telling me all kinds of stuff about the features and whatnot - and I’m thinking “this dude is pulling this stuff out of his ass!” I never bother to correct them because I figure it’ll likely be a waste of time. Just sell me the vehicle and let’s get this crap over with.
Lol this is like back when some tire shops would turn away Tesla’s even when they had the exact tire sizes needed. “We aren’t trained on EV’s”
When I was shopping around for a Subaru, I hit up a local Chevy dealership that had a used one I was interested in.
The salesman popped the hood, looked at the four-cylinder boxer engine and said “yep, it’s got your standard V6.” And I got to explain to him the difference between a Subaru engine and a V6.
I generally don’t believe a word out of their mouth that I haven’t verified myself. Once I’m in the market for an electric vehicle, that won’t change.