Source https://lemmy.zip/post/72029200/29026430
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Dictatorship of the bourgeois doesn’t mean the same thing as just a dictatorship. Marx when he invented the terms dictatorship of the proletariat was referring to which class get what they want out of the government, not referring to a totalitarian single ruler control.
By the Marxist definition every western country is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie
Calling legitimate democracies any kind of dictatorships is simply disingenuous. Its just not what words mean. If the majority of people vote for something, that thing they voted for is the will of the people. And if the people/parties they voted for are able to take power, the majority of the populace “got what they want”. And if they want a capitalist system with billionaires, well, thats what they are going to get. I feel like a lot of leftists end up stuck saying things like “people in western societies are brainwashed/they dont know what they really want (and I do)” to explain why countries dont want them in power.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B
this is the case in america, I don’t know of a similar study done by taiwan, but it’s likely the case there as well.
It’s clear that the peoples vote hardly matters.
Well, by all means continue to not vote then.
That’s a strawman. It still got that change 43% of the time, and I vote every election!
This is also you not engaging with their arguments. Nobody says don’t vote, they say voting is comparatively pointless next to organization. The study basically proves that if you want change the most meaningful thing you can do is organize and strike, no?
Nobody is saying don’t vote, they’re saying don’t use voting as a way of saying you don’t have to organize and strike. It won’t on its own produce meaningful change.
Ok sure I agree with all that. So what is it that’s so bad about western democracies again? The combination of democracy and the ability to strike, organize and protest are why western democracies have more civil liberties than anywhere else in the world. Working conditions in, for example, China are markedly worse and the right to protest is nonexistent.
you’re dodging the study that was posted. the one that clearly indicates that isn’t happening in western “democracy”
the only reason they ever let you is because they’re in power, but it’ll be quite difficult to explain away making antifa a terrorist organization, for example.
You’d need to compare and contrast which specific rights and civil liberties you’re talking about to say which one has more or less, I could point to at will employment and say the US is obviously worse, there’s also the fact that the US breaks unions and strikes all the time too.
china has freedom of speech written into its constitution too, it ultimately doesn’t matter if these rights are ignored, as they are in both places.
Im not dodging anything, I accept the results of the study, but i dont think its useful for comparison to a non-democracy.
Im not sure what you mean by at-will employment, as it relates to civil liberties?
There are certainly some aspects of Chinese society that are freer than in America, but i think its a false equivalency to say “both sides bad”. Look at any rankings and you’ll see that.
https://freedomhouse.org/country/scores
You might say, well those rankings are biased, but if you look at what i would say are the core civil liberties:
-freedom of speech/expression
-freedom of religion
-protection from discrimination
-right to representation
There really isn’t any comparison. And that doesnt even get into the right to bear arms/the right to form a well-regulated militia. You think the US government is too hard on antifa? Try that shit in China haha
just to be clear here, before I respond, can you state how you think voting works in china, and why it isn’t a democracy?
uhhh
bad in both places, both have it enshrined in their constitution
we’d need to talk about specific points, but yes the US is better, but i’m kinda thinking the US’s stance is backfiring hard on this one, religion is pretty evil.
the US is so obviously worse that this isn’t worth a discussion? native americans? reparations? all the genocides and human experimentation? every single foreign country they have invaded and “freed”
seems about even to me? awful in both places, the study I gave touched on this, what good is representation if it accomplishes nothing?
https://bristoluniversitypressdigital.com/view/journals/pp/52/3/article-p360.xml?rskey=wMjlkC&result=26#d1190470e2128
slightly better in china, it seems, since there is SOME correlation.
You’re doing good work out here comrade. Just wanted to say I appreciate your methods of getting folks to think critically 🫡
Honestly, South Korea isn’t really that democratic, because no matter who wins, they tend to be controlled by the Chaebols.
Taiwan is a true democracy and probably one of the most, if not the most progressive country in Asia.