I don’t really blame many of the Marxists here for being short on patience, much of the arguments we have are the same exact arguments we’ve had day after day. I do think patience tends to be more useful in dialogue, but I also can’t expect everyone else to uphold that.

Take care!

First off, I apologize if I came off as hostile. That’s not really my intent, I try to correct misconceptions and misunderstandings surrounding Marxism and Marxism-Leninism when I see them.

Overall, the Marxist view on markets is that at lower stages of development, they can serve a progressive role, but at higher stages they impede progress and even turn into imperialism, as we see in Europe and the US, ie the global north. Capitalism is best described as a system by which private property is the principle aspect of an economy, ie the large firms and key industries are privately owned. In such a condition, this means private property also has control of the state, so markets will largely play a reactionary role in exploiting and oppressing the masses. Socialism can make use of limited markets while retaining state control of the large firms and key industries to get the good growth of markets in lower development while taking advantage of the numerous benefits of central planning at higher stages in development.

Capitalism itself leads to inequality and fascism. There isn’t a way to escape this, there is no such thing as a static capitalism. It either forces imperialism outwardly, is stuck at simple reproduction in imperialized countries (rather than reproduction on an expanded scale), or turns to fascism, if it doesn’t have a socialist revolution.

As for the PRC, they are firmly Marxist-Leninist, specifically Marxism-Leninism-Xi Jinping Thought, which is largely a synthesis of ML-Mao Zedong Thought and Deng Xiaoping Theory, itself an addendum to MZT. Their system is firmly socialist, their use of markets and private property is in a controlled manner that can only be controlled as such in a primarily planned economy. Without understanding this, you won’t be able to see why the PRC is on the rise and is so stable, while Social Democracies in Europe are on the decline.

You’re welcome for the links. If you want a standard reading list for Marxism-Leninism, I made an introductory one you can check out if you ever get the interest. You’ll be able to better understand the USSR, it’s strengths and weaknesses, and why the PRC is currently succeeding.

No, this is a very bad frame of analysis.

1. Settler-colonialism is absolutely still a massive issue. It isn’t a thing of the past.

2. The patriarchial structure of society still oppresses men and women everywhere.

You’re erasing very real issues, strawmanning what people believe, and plugging your ears. This is the “I don’t see color” problem, that’s you ignoring systemic problems, not getting rid of them!

What your tactic would result in is a large portion of women, ethnic minorities, and queer folk being further alienated just to potentially win more white men, but that wouldn’t happen either. Focus on liberation along all lines, economic, social, and more, and allow these coalitions to strengthen our position. You’re furthering division by shutting down the voices of oppressed peoples, strawmanning what they say, just because its uncomfortable for you to hear.

It was generally a pro-western coup. You can’t really disentangle the EU from NATO from the US along clean lines, they have lots of overlap. NATO, in 2021, affirmed its plans of further integrating Ukraine.

Really, Euromaidan was sparked by Yanukovych pivoting away from the more predatory IMF loan offer to the less predatory Russian loan offer. Indeed, the loan from Russia had better terms, the IMF loan would have forced Ukraine to slash their healthcare and education budgets, and stop subsidies in natural gas (which kept energy prices low) as part of the loan terms.

I’m not trying to be mean here, but I really don’t care about anecdotes. When I say that the Soviet economy was strong and maintained some of the highest rates of growth in the world all while having a lower disparity, it’s because I’ve done the reading and research to see that. A quick article like *Do Publicly Owned, Planned Economies Work? by Stephen Gowans, or a full book like Is the Red Flag Flying? The Political Economy of the Soviet Union by Albert Syzmanski or Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti all do a far better job than anecdotes at seeing what conditions were actually like systemically.

From the moment in 1928 that the Soviet economy became publicly owned and planned, to the point in 1989 that the economy was pushed in a free market direction, Soviet GDP per capita growth exceeded that of all other countries but Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. GDP per person grew by a factor of 5.2, compared to 4.0 for Western Europe and 3.3 for the Western European offshoots (the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand) (Allen, 2003). In other words, over the period in which its publicly owned, planned economy was in place, the USSR‘s record in raising incomes was better than that of the major industrialized capitalist countries. The Soviet Union’s robust growth over this period is all the more impressive considering that the period includes the war years when a major assault by Nazi Germany left a trail of utter destruction in its wake. The German invaders destroyed over 1,500 cities and towns, along with 70,000 villages, 31,000 factories, and nearly 100 million head of livestock (Leffler, 1994). Growth was highest to 1970, at which point expansion of the Soviet economy began to slow. However, even during this so-called (and misnamed) post-1970 period of stagnation, GDP per capita grew 27 percent (Allen, 2003).

I’m also not saying the Soviet Union was perfect. There indeed were issues with black markets, misplanning, etc, but they didn’t outweigh the dramatic benefits the system provided. It’s no wonder that the majority of people who lived through the Soviet system wish it had remained. With the reintroduction of capitalism in the 90s, an estimated 7 million people died due to a loss in safety nets and a dramatic increase in poverty around the world.

The achievements of the USSR and its failings need to be contextualized in the fact that, unlike western countries, the USSR was a developing country. With it, however, came around the developed world a mass expansion in safety nets in order to provide what the USSR was already providing for its people. With the fall of the USSR, wealth disparity around the world began to climb more rapidly than ever:

As for the PRC, “Socialist Market Economy” is the official term for its economy. The fact that you admit to never hearing that term before means you haven’t actually done much research into it. State Capitalism refers to countries where private ownership is principle, ie governs the large firms and key industries, but with strong state influence, like Bismark’s Germany, the Republic of Korea, and Singapore. In the PRC, it’s public property that governs the large firms and key industries.

The system overall is called Socialism With Chinese Characteristics, or SWCC. Here’s a study guide for it, in more depth. The key takeaway is that private property and markets existed in Mao’s era, in the USSR, etc, the modern PRC isn’t very different from those in terms of where the balance of power lies. Trying to plan all of the small, underdeveloped industry can often slow growth, while planning and controlling the large firms and key industries is not only more effective economically, also retains proletarian control over the economy. As the small and medium firms are developed through market forces, they can be better intrgrated into central planning and have their property gradually sublimated. It’s Marxism-Leninism applied to the conditions of modern China, also called Marxism-Leninism-Xi Jinping Thought. So yes, China is absolutely socialist.

No worries, and have fun with it! Feel free to ask any questions or give feedback for it if you want to. It’s also an intro list, there’s a ton you can read beyond it once you finish, but you should be able to figure out what you want to read when you finish it.

I agree, you rejecting the consensus of both western and non-western sources is pretty sad, all while you complain about Marxists.

Oh don’t worry, I read it. Pro-western outlets like Kyiv Post reported that story, while at the same time failing to produce evidence that the referendums were unpopular after all.

1. The Donbass region is largely pro-Russian, and is ethnically Russian.

2. The Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics have been fighting Kyiv for a decade

3. Kyiv has been shelling Donetsk and Luhansk for a decade.

All of these are not only widely reported in non-western media, but also acknowledged by western media as well. It’s something the west and non-west can agree on, which means you rejecting it is akin to conspiracy theory.

This hits the nail on the head. Settlers fear, above all, being treated anywhere near as badly as we’ve treated indigenous peoples, when they have been infinitely kinder. The last shall be first, that doesn’t mean they will kill of us or deport all of us, but it means the decisions will be driven by indigenous people first and foremost.

It’s telling of the settler mindset that they immediately assume decolonization entails being treated almost as horribly as settlers have treated indigenous peoples.

Read or take a dose of melatonin.

The last will be first. Landback and decolonization means putting the reigns into the hands of the indigenous people’s hands, and letting go of the reigns, not just holding onto the reigns but giving the colonized people some of the reigns. The best settlers can hope for is to be treated kinder than they have treated the people whose land they stole. I myself was born in the US, and am still a settler here, just because I was born here does not absolve my role. It means I have a historic duty to help carry out decolonization and land back, from the back, not as a leading role.

Read Fanon.

Yep! Marx himself said that the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles, after all. Feudalism does have a lot in common with capitalism, but what makes Marx interesting is how he analyzed how capitalism is different. Many leftists of his era were focused on the similarity between capitalism and feudalism, Marx focused on the opposite, how it’s different, and this is what propelled him into scientific socialism, socialism as it emerges from capitalism.

And no problem for the reading list! It’s designed to be completed in order, and is focused on taking someone freshly radicalized but with no experience with leftist theory, and leave them as someone with a firm grasp on the fundamentals of Marxism-Leninism and how to behave as an organized leftist! It also has audiobooks, queer and feminist theory, a good dose of basic history, and more. Since you mentioned philosophy, the 2nd section goes over Dialectical Materialism, so it might be a really good fit for you if that’s your current interest! Still read section 1 before 2, but 2 is a fun section once you get there!

And great to hear you plan on getting organized! Really, that’s step 1, but obviously not everyone can do so immediately due to life events and whatnot. Just do what you can!

Seems the meme isn’t displaying properly on my end.

Edit: now that it’s displaying properly, lmao. Cute hamster!

All socialism is democratic, “democratic socialism” normally refers to reformist socialism. The corruption, in that case, makes sense, as reformism is usually conceding to the status quo.

1. Cuba, USSR, Vietnam, etc. Socialism works.

2. China 100% counts as socialist. The Gang of Four diverged from Marxism-Leninism into ultraleft dogmatism. Ultraleftism is not “pure socialism,” there is no such thing as “pure” socialism, capitalism, etc. The PRC under Mao had markets, private property, etc, as did the USSR. As a consequence, the modern CPC is course-corrected to a standard Marxist-Leninist outlook. Both Mao and Stalin are seen as 70% good by the modern CPC.

3. The claims of “authoritarianism” are the repression of capitalists.

4. Yes, I’ve read Capital, volume 1. I’m on volume 2 right now. More importantly, I’ve read a ton of Marx, Engels, Lenin, and far more Marxist authors, all who speak about Dialectical Materialism and socialism, how to bring about communism, and more, all of which you won’t find in Capital. I’m skeptical that you’ve even read Volume 1, to be honest, your understanding of Marxism is incredibly poor. Using “I’ve read Capital” as an “I win the argument” tool is incredibly poor rhetoric, if you have a good argument, make it, don’t appeal to your own authority.

5. Yes, political theory isn’t a religion, you seem to think it is though.

This is nonsense, again.

1. The Soviet economy worked very well, and was one of the fastest growing economies of the 20th century. The difference between the wealthiest and the poorest was about 5 times, compared to hundreds to thousands in capitalist countries (and even more).

2. The PRC has a Socialist Market Economy, the large firms and key industries are state owned and planned. They are pragmatic and learned, which is why they maintained socialism.

3. Yes, the PRC is proof that socialism works astoundingly well.

4. Again, you return to vibes-based nonsense. The Soviet Union was more democratic than capitalist countries, and the PRC is as well.

This is just you replacing sound economic analysis with vibes-based idealism, ironically you’re divorcing yourself from reality while claiming others need to see it better. A quick example is that socialism has resulted in far lower inequality while maintaining stable growth than capitalism has, yet you pretend they are the same in disparity. Connect with reality.

The reason the GOP won is because the DNC ran to the right in a country where the working class is increasingly radicalized. The largest block of society outright doesn’t vote because they don’t see a material difference in the outcome of the election, or because voting in their state doesn’t matter as its solidly red or blue to begin with. Both parties support the bourgeoisie. Even if the DNC won, we would still be in the same mess, because the problems with our system is that it’s a dying capitalist empire.

The only one supporting horseshoe theory is you, as you blame Marxists for the problems caused by both parties in a dying capitalist empire.

Modes of production are historical phenomena, guided by technological advancements. Capitalism wasn’t a choice, but a result of growing industrial bourgeois production resolving its contradiction with feudal agrarian production. The steam engine is what accelerated this process. Zooming out, capital is the real master of capitalists, capitalists are merely the high priests of capital best guessing at what it wants, but ultimately are slaves to the profit motive and how to best extract it.

And no worries! One thing that’s helpful, is that the centralization of capitalism over time is exactly what creates a large class capable of collectively planning and running production in the interests of all. The profit motive destroys the profit motive. I try to maintain revolutionary optimism, doomerism is more of a product of the capitalist class trying to remove revolutionary fervor.

Based on your final paragraph, you’d do well with reading leftist theory! I already said I’m a Marxist-Leninist, I actually made an introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list if you want to spend some time on theory, but you can explore whatever leftist tendencies you want to. The two biggest umbrellas are anarchism and Marxism, the former being about decentralization and horizontalism, the latter being about centralization and collectivization (to massively oversimplify), and the biggest tendency in Marxism is Marxism-Leninism. If you want to learn more about what makes these distinct, feel free to ask, I used to be an anarchist myself.

Also, if you can, join an org! If you’re US-based, I recommend something like The Party for Socialism and Liberation. There are probably other orgs local to you, though, so do some shopping around. Getting organized is the only way out of this mess, and into the new. A better world is possible!

New York Times, reporting on Kiev using cluster bombs in the Donbass region in 2014

According to wikipedia, the vast majority of the donbass region voted for independence from Ukraine.

Wikipedia article, going over the Euromaidan coup from a pro-western perspective

Vice news, 9 years ago, in the Donetsk People’s Republic

All of these are pro-Western sources that do a better job of acknowledging the reality of the situation better than you do. You seem to not only only accept pro-western news, but exclusively pro-western news that goes against the western consensus on the Donbass Region.