This comment was in response to someone expressing regret about joining .ml if I recall correctly
Edit: I’m convinced all this guy does is camp out in front of his computer and wait for an excuse to abuse what itty bitty power he has.
This comment was in response to someone expressing regret about joining .ml if I recall correctly
Edit: I’m convinced all this guy does is camp out in front of his computer and wait for an excuse to abuse what itty bitty power he has.
They banned me for saying there is no genocide in Gaza.
(there is none)
That is a bit of an L take though
It’s the objective truth. Yes, the IDF could probably do more to protect civilians but at the absolute worst what they’re doing is comparable to the conduct of the Western Allies against Germany in WW2.
Israel dropping unguided bombs from 10k feet from prop airplanes is certainly an “entertaining” thought but so far removed from the reality of precision guided missiles hitting hospitals and snipers shooting unarmed civilians and journalists in the back that it loops back around to being funny in a very morbid way.
Look at the other awnser.
Its just THE truth.
If you mean that Kaboom guy, then lol
Dude believes that the 40 decapitated babies lie is the truth because IDF said so
Genocide denialism is probably one of the least objectionable reasons to get banned from a community.
It’s genocide vs genocide, really.
Yeah. Unfortunately. All we can do is voice opposition to whichever one is achieving its goals at any given moment - Hamas in the immediate aftermath of October 7th, and Israel now.
Maybe someday they’ll sit the fuck down and figure out that this conflict can’t continue forever. Well, Hamas and Bibi never will, but whatever representatives of the Palestinian and Israeli people emerge from the other side of this phase of our everlasting Israel-Palestine conflict.
Or you can oppose both.
Well, yes, but the one most ‘in swing’ at any given time takes precedence in terms of attention given.
The idea that there’s a good guy and a bad guy when it comes to war is stupid.
… okay?
The goal of hamas is and always has been to kill all jews, the goal of Israel is to exterminate hamas… So yeah we should stick to hamas because Israel has more military power!/s no we should be for the destruction of hamas and keep civilians in mind.
Since the Palestinians believe in Inherited refuge status, wich is total BS and many aren’t even descendants of refugees, its not exactly possible to work with them, the hamas approval in Westbank and Gaza is very high, its not like the civilians dont have their part in that all, hamas terrorists don’t just spawn from thin air. And there have been times of peace, always broken by terrorists.
Nah man its Hamas vs Israel and only hamas has committed genocidal acts and has the goal of genocide on all jews, thats one reason why talking with them doesn’t work at all. Don’t get me wrong, Israel should have done more for the civilians in the early war, but somethings are just impossible to handle, especially regarding the risks. This war is 100% the fault of Hamas and the other groups like Islamic jihad or rather Iran and Russia that are the puppeteers behind them, hezbolla as well but they are known to cause problems in Libanon and everywhere around. Israel has a pretty “good” relation with the actual Lebanese government and the Egyptian government. *good in means of goal oriented, not necessarily friendly.
The fault is on both of them, really. Israel had plenty of warnings from Jordan, Egypt, the US, the EU and their own security agency about an attack in October.
Of course, there is always an attack, and Israel is also not allowed to stop an attack before it happens, instead only after it happens.
Ok but… Who attacked? Shure it was preventable and im definitely hating Netanjahu for not taking action before it happened, but the offense came from Hamas, they could have just not tried to commit a genocide. You cant push the blame of this on Israel regardless of if it was or wasn’t preventable by a preventative military action, they are the victim of a attack. And a preventative strike would have resulted in basically the same, everyone blaming Israel for defending their civilians from genocidal maniacs.
In my opinion, they should absolutely have done a preventative action against that, but just like on “9.11” warnings where ignored for one reason or another, likely disbelief that hamas would be capable of pulling it off at all.
Well they were actually attacked from more than just Hamas, but it is Hamas that perpetrated the massacres. It doesn’t help that Hamas took hostages. If there were no hostage-taking, none of this would be as messy as it is.
In my personal armchair opinion, I think Israel should’ve waited before immediately going for the hostages to get some international support. But then again, that’s giving Hamas power.
Yeah Islamic jihad was there as well, but thats basically the little brother of hamas and a branch of Isis
And Israel did wait for a significant amount of time for that kind of problem. The remaining hostages are dead by now and they knew hamas isn’t nice to them, there aren’t any actual reports from freed hostages, because Israel is shielding them from everything and most are in therapy, but some statements where made, these include systematic rape, torture and more things along these lines.
Truly barbaric.
If its about a actual genocide maybe, but its about the made up stuff from gaza, where people scream genocide despite there very objectively being none, there is a war, it definitely cost civilian lifes but that doesn’t mean its a genocide. A genocide is what hamas did on 7th October, what Russia did in several separate locations in Ukraine, what China is doing to the Muslims or what Turkey is doing in the east (Armenia and Syria and Kurdish people)
A genocide isn’t waging war, a genocide is actively hunting civilians and making life impossible. Israel does not do that, they do the opposite.
Btw the death numbers from the Gaza ministry of health (a hamas lead institution) include the civilians killed by hamas and their actions (i don’t count the entire war as their action, there are some sources that do, but thats not right either) about 20% of the rockets hamas launched into Israel failed and hit gaza, killing hundreds of civilians. Hamas dug very elaborate tunnels (military facilities) under living areas, thats not just a war crime but significantly contributes to destruction (hit one thing, cause a chain reaction due to collapsing tunnels)
This is very objectively not a genocide.
Yeah, that’s what Israel is doing
I don’t know what else you get from Israel’s actions and stated concerns. In a year, they’ve killed a greater percentage of Gazans than Coalition forces killed Iraqis in all ~10 years of the Iraq War. And Coalition forces in Iraq were (rightfully) accused of being metaphorically trigger-happy.
UN isn’t a credible source for anything Israel related. (and especially not the ministry of truth) And also, its a very different kind of war and furthermore this are the numbers from the Gaza ministry of health, wich is a hamas institution and wich does the thing mentioned above.
I don’t doubt that there are many casualtys, many civilian casualtys as well, but that doesn’t mean its a genocide.
So, what would you accept as a credible source for Israeli genocide, theoretically?
I can’t speak for them, but a general consensus among Western governments.
What’s a consensus, in this case? Supermajority? Plurality?
Majority. As long as they can present convincing evidence (i.e. evidence that doesn’t rely on trusting the word of Hamas and/or their friends in Doha and Tehran).
Edit: I’ll also say that I trust some Western governments more than others. I’ll take the word of the current German government over that of the current Italian one, for example.
As mentioned above, there is no genocide, and that’s why no credible source is speaking about a genocide.
The ICJ (UN so has a anti Israel bias) fir example said that there is no genocide currently even though Israel must take action to protect civilians in Gaza, wich they did, see the other threat here.
Theoretically speaking, what sources would you accept as authoritative on the matter of an ongoing genocide?
There is no credible authority body that calles or doesn’t call something genocide, genocide has a very clear definition and genocide is defined according to that definition, ICJ does try to be neutral but Israel has as said a very hard time with UN because UN turned into a anti Israel body, so they don’t get people into Gaza or Israel. The only external people in gaza currently are a few selected journalists that travel with IDF (CNN from what i know, maybe the guardian, but I’m not certain on that) or the hamas propaganda speakers that call themselves journalists (aljazeera) but are legally not.
By Israel’s own admission they kill two civilians for every Hamas soldier.
Israeli soldiers film themselves committing war crimes and dancing on the graves of Palestinian civilians they’ve killed.
What more do you want?
Please don’t use Al Jazeera, they are owned by the Qatari government, which is the same government that actively holds Hamas leadership. They are extraordinarily biased and not to be taken seriously.
Didn’t question that, but its a war not a genocide. Furthermore it is common knowledge that hamas does hide among civilians and uses human shields, that’s why hamas isn’t legally protected by the Geneva conventions, as they don’t count as combatants in that matter, they wear mostly civilian clothes.
Aljazeera article… Fuck them they are known to be super pro Hamas. However i didn’t question that there happened to be war crimes on the side of the IDF, they do happen, its however a big difference between systematical and individual war crimes, war crimes have to be prosecuted but that doesn’t mean its a genocide.
Some Cookies and milk, also maybe not using Aljazeera sources or sources that just cite them unchecked while you are at it.
Did you really just “fake news” the UN? LOL!
So you think a Diplomatic forum is the fucking ministry of truth. Its a political platform, its the exact opposite of truthful.
Okay, so you’re just making shit up as you go along.
One attack cannot be a genocide.
An ongoing campaign to deprive an entire population of food, water, medicine, electricity, and any route to escape is pretty fucking obviously within the UN definition of genocide.
Hamas has stated clearly that their desire is the extermination of Jews globally.
In 2017, they changed it to just Israel, but Hamas forces don’t actually use that charter.
… does it matter what they say or doesn’t it?
You’re not trying to have it both ways anywhere near as badly as this schmuck, but you are trying to have it both ways.
Of course it matters what either side says, especially if what they say is genocide.
Neither Gaza nor Israel are innocent in the war.
Have you ever in your life read and understood the genocide conversations? Cause this comment speaks otherwise.
Id recommend you to educate yourself:
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people,[a] either in whole or in part.
The Political Instability Task Force estimated that 43 genocides occurred between 1956 and 2016, resulting in about 50 million deaths.[1] The UNHCR estimated that a further 50 million had been displaced by such episodes of violence up to 2008.[1] Genocide is widely considered to be the epitome of human evil.[2] Genocide has been referred to as the “crime of crimes”.[3][4][5] Incitement to genocide is recognized as a separate crime under international law and an inchoate crime which does not require genocide to have taken place to be prosecutable.[6]
In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”. These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.[7][8]
-Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)
As you see Intention is a big part and a war doesn’t constitute intention to kill civilians.
Furthermore your claims are just untrue.
Israel does allow and help to deliver food and water, they even build a temporary Port with the help of USA, they also returned operations of a water treatment plant that was left inoperable by hamas (the “government” of gaza) in fact the war was caused by said group. Furthermore the civilian camps are in fact mostly safe, there have been instances of misfires, that is sad but does happen, or Hamas attacks.
Oh and the claim of prohibiting any way to flee doesn’t make sense, Israel had kept civilian corridors open for weeks, yes they aren’t allowed to leave Gaza, but thats because the probability of hamas hiding among civilians isn’t just high its a certainty.
So By definition, you are wrong.
Have you been living under a rock and purposefully avoiding all the coverage of how Israel have been bombing these “open civilian corridors”?
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67114281
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-airstrike-kills-women-children-fleeing-evacuation-route-northern-gaza-2023-10
Maybe you missed the news of how Israel have spent millions of dollars on killing more than 200 aid workers.
You claim intention is needed. What do you call intentionally shelling the “civilian corridors” they themselves tell people to use?
They trap them inside, and shell them continuously. More than a 150’000 people have died as just an indirect cause, being denied clean water, food, shelter and medical supplies.
https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2024/01/middleeast/gaza-hospitals-destruction-investigation-intl-cmd/
I’ll give you a quick tldr; because I know to won’t.
What do you think the intent is behind taking out hospitals? I think the intent is to deny medical aid to the hundreds of thousands civilian casualties.
By everything you yourself have stated. What they’re doing is a genocide. Their intention is to exterminate the Palestinian people. Gaza will be reduced to rubble. Along with everyone in it. And after there’s nothing left and no one can live there. Israel will sieze it.
This little port you think you can use as proof otherwise is nothing but bare minimum to try and make it seem like that’s not what they’re doing. Like a child pretending to cough so they can stay home from school.
Please be aware that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, meaning that they don’t have a strict militia, and they often disguise themselves as civilians. So long as Hamas continues to hide in civilian infrastructure, legally, the IDF can continue these attacks.
The UN has told Hamas to stop this for decades, but it’s fallen on deaf ears and is likely to continue.
Likewise, where is your evidence of the 150k figure? Isn’t the figure 38-40k?
Estimations of indirect deaths varies of course since they are more difficult.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
The 150k includes these indirect deaths. Deaths from starvation, trampling, disease and sickness as a result of the war.
Not peer-reviewed, not relevant.
Don’t use anything non-peer-reviewed as evidence. It’s disingenuous.
https://www.thetower.org/article/the-lancet-how-an-anti-israel-propaganda-platform-was-turned-around/
The Lancet has been used by Hamas before. The death numbers are likely very off and purely fictional as there is no credible source for any of that.
Furthermore lancet doesn’t let me fact check with spinscore so thats another reason to not trust them. (403 forbidden error)
Keep telling that BS to yourself. Your links don’t say anything about Israel bombing those corridors, that’s because there is no evidence about that actually happening at all and the probability is rather that hamas did it.
The remaining comment is just bant old antisemitism in the cape of Israel critic without any proof, much framing/Desinformation and many feelings.
Yes. They do. If you actually read them you would know. For example. In the second link. It’s explicitly stated in the first paragraph.
You must have “missed” that.
It’s funny because any criticism you will drape it as antisemitism. The proof is so overwhelming. Bombing of safe routes, taking out hospitals as a first priority, little by little they are already reducing the strip to rubble. That’s not me thinking they will. That’s them currently doing it.
https://spinscore.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2F2023%2Foct%2F14%2Fgaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes
Maybe fact check stuff before using, i did wich is why i say no source says Israel did it. Even your source refrains from explicitly say that, however it is implied, this is nither verifiable nor likely as mentioned above and by the fact check.
As far as I’m concerned, it’s genocide vs genocide, as it has been since ancient history.
Saying, there is no genocide in Gaza in your opinion, or making an assertion about the subject? There’s a big difference between the two.
Edit: Ah, yeah. That explains a lot.
Its literally by definition and finding of ICJ. Genocide isn’t a opinion or feelings thing ist about hard facts. And saying there is a genocide in Gaza is like saying Ukraine commits genocide in Russia.
Its a war. Nither Israel nor Ukraine started the wars, they both don’t target civilians and they do their best to keep civilians out of harms way. There is a lot of fake news about Gaza, but that doesn’t change the facts.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/
Just because the accusing party throws truckloads of accusations, doesn’t mean they are true, the court found that some accusations have truth to it, but the majority is either untrue or irrelevant. Israel also followed the order to improve the humanitarian situation, despite the accusing parties claims of the opposite. They literally build a port for humanitarian aid with the help of usa and restored operationability of one of the water treatment plants.
A genocide looks waaay different. A genocide is what Germany did in the nazi era, what China is doing to the Muslim minoritys, what Turkey is doing in Syria, Armenia and parts of Turkey. But a war isn’t genocide.
From your source. 15 out of 17 judges agreed to tell Israel to stop committing acts that “[fall] within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention.” You realize that phrasing is the diplomatic way of saying “stop committing genocide,” right?
No that doesn’t mean stop committing genocide, it means do more to prevent a genocide from happening, wich they did.
Just a reminder that the court couldn’t do shit even if, because its a UN institution. Furthermore UN and Israel have a very very hard time, wich furthers the proof of no genocide. The smallest bit would have been called genocide by them, it was not.
Are you sure you’re up to date on the war? Because this is not as true as one would hope.
Thank you! Reading lemmy, you’d think the IDF was Hamas or something.
No, the IDF is much worse.
Are you honestly saying that the IDF is worse than Hamas?
Yup, by not committing a genocide and reclaiming their homeland, they’re much worse than the invaders who already committed one.
(Israel is the ancestoral homeland of the Jews, Muslims committed a genocide when they conquered the area)
Quick question - if Native Americans killed 1 out of every 50 US citizens in an attempt to drive them off of Native ancestral land, would this be:
A. Ethnic cleansing
OR
B. Not ethnic cleansing
?
Who was there first? The Indians or the Whites?
Native Americans.
Great, so we agree. White people committed a genocide against the Indians when they conquered the Americas, just like Muslims committed a genocide against the Jews when they conquered the Middle East.
Accepting that premise for the sake of the argument, since the history of the region’s disruption of the Jewish population predates Islam, so does that genocide justify another genocide some hundreds of years later?
Not only that, but they tried and try to kill all jews in Israel, and the wish of Iran, the known big daddy of all terrorists in middle east is to kill all jews in the world. Literally the spiritual successors of the Nazis