- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.world
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.world
- linux@lemmy.ml
Latest foss drama. Consequences of your actions…
the /r/linux subreddit thread about this is as awful as you would imagine.
The SJW’s are coming for your toothbrush!!!-
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I was about to give hyprland a try to see what the wayland offerings were like but after I saw that thread yesterday, I think I’m just going to stick to the screen tearing beauty of xmonad.
Thanks for the recommendations! Niri is very interesting as a proof of concept.
Vivarium looks like its not very actively developed which is sorta sad. I’m going to need to do more research into what’s around. There’s a lot of toy projects out there but not as many mature offerings.
It does seem XMonad is looking for help with a Wayland version: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/xmonad-for-wayland-call-for-help/7812
Hm if I was more familiar with Haskell and Wayland I’d jump in on that. I barely learned enough Haskell to configure my setup and I’ve been going all in on learning Rust in the recent months. I fear I may actually be too dumb for a fully functional language.
The /r/linux thread has been brigaded by his groupies. This seems to be a trend when some racist transphobe cybercracker comes under fire.
It’s also true that thar subreddit is trash. So maybe the thread would not have looked much different without brigading.
Also I don’t understand the deal with Hyprland. For some reason the distro I use (void linux) can’t or won’t package it. Never looked into why.
It’s super easy to make your own packages for void linux with xbps.
cybercracker
hahaha I’m using that from now on
That sub is normally trash, true. But, there’s another thread about this topic that’s a bit better.
distro I use (void linux)
How do you like that compared to other distros?
If you want a layman’sol opinion between Arch Linux ARM and Void Linux I much prefer Void Linux partly because systemd. I don’t hate systemd but it seems to add a layer of esoteric complexity that I have discovered I don’t need through my usage of Void Linux.
For example, I had been trying to set up a wifi USB adapter on Arch. I have installed and configured iwd for this. In Void, this would have been enough. But in Arch, there is a one-shot service that checks if network is available and other services that need network/internet can use this service as a depenendency. This is a nice feature but it turns out I then also have to configure this wifi interface in some systemd folder otherwise the one-shot service does not care a out the wifi adapter. Until I did this, some services would not start until the one-shot service timed out and failed and these kinds of problems are hard to google or ask help for because it is hard to tell in the first place what is going wrong.
There are other things like how systemd comes with its own implementations of ntpd, dns confguration and even some cron equivalent. It is very confusing. I guess it’s valuable knowledge if one uses systemd distros all the time though.
yeah systemd isn’t for me, but I don’t hate it. On debian so far it hasn’t really affected me negatively. After xz vulnerability I see increasing problems with it, and am considering using other distros including void…or one of the bsd’s…
Using OpenRC on Gentoo saved me from Fractureiser. There’s some benefit from using less common tools.
Once I get my Gentoo setup back up and running, I plan to use OpenRC+s6. s6’s developer talks about issues with different init systems here. I don’t hate systemd, but I believe different systems fulfill different purposes with different requirements, and some tools are better suited for different requirements. Nonetheless, I would prefer there to be options unless a specific tool fulfills all purposes better than others.
All of that makes sense to me. I’m not using gentoo though lol. I’d probably keep a debian install around at all times out of habit…For non systemd linux probably void, and for unix like probably one of the bsd’s
+1 for void linux, it has a great init (runit) and it is very unix-like in the sense that configuration is done through files. It’s also very stable despite being rolling release.
I have not used order distros except for Arch Linux ARM on a SBC. Personally all I care about is the packages I want/need in the official repos.
Void won’t package Hyprland because it doesn’t use a stable/tagged version of wlroots, so it needs a vendored version to build it (ref: https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/issues/37544)
The Wayland compositor that looks like it was made by /g/ has toxicity issues? 😲
Don’t be so quick to defend the “SJWs”, they are liberals, after all.
“… Tankies, … and other fascists not welcomed.”
Liberals are not our allies. Let the liberals and the alt-right eat each other, they’re two sides of the same culture war coin.
In this specific case I’m not sure two sides of the same coin really works.
In general yes, you can find SJW’s that are libs.
I used the term in my own post mostly to shit on reactionaries that blame SJW’s for everything.
I have to be honest comrade, when the events that are going on are “a trans person is being harassed by one of the biggest bigoted serial harassers in the community for enforcing basic code of conduct rules”, I think this kind of comment is unnecessary at best and harmful at worst, this is not a “both sides” issue by any means
This person you showed isn’t even the freedesktop member responsible for the decision
US and NATO are also very pro-LGBTQ, does that mean we need to side with them against African and SEA countries who don’t have a good LGBTQ track record? They use trans people as a tool to gain control, they support trans people as long as they are useful to them. Liberals want to control everyone’s thoughts and they think they can do that by removing words and policing speech. Liberals do not have allies, all they care about is that liberalism is the dominant ideology. They wouldn’t take kindly to support of China, lack of support of Biden, or whatever issue they use to spread their influence. Saying China is not committing genocide against Uyghurs is “genocide denial”, too.
enforcing basic code of conduct rules
That they wrote themselves and want to apply everywhere. Obviously I’m not for insulting people because of sexual preferences, ethnicity, etc. but we don’t need liberals with a “Code of Conduct” to “protect” people. If a person doesn’t like a community, they don’t have to join it. Hyprland isn’t the only window manager, there are others, it’s not like it is an essential part of Linux everyone must use.
I much rather have Nazis out in the open than hiding. I much rather be able to see the community for what it is, so I can make an educated decision on whether I want to be a part of it or not.
In my experience as an immigrant in Western Europe I found that people (liberals, progressives) in these countries will never use racial slurs, they’ll go through the motions of being “inclusive” and will never outright say something racist against other ethnicities, but they are in fact racist as fuck. I feel stupid for falling for it, I believed that inclusive language = actual inclusivity. But it doesn’t. Enforcing a Code of Conduct in the Hyprland community is not going to make that community inclusive of trans people, what it will do is make trans people believe the community is inclusive, so once they join maybe they’ll be made fun of in private or their information stored and shared through private channels. That’s putting people at risk, making them join communities that appear safe.
The creator of Hyprland obviously isn’t bothered by having these alt-right/Nazi types in the community and hasn’t been willing to remove them. These liberals certainly won’t make him change his mind, what they’ll do is make the anti-LGBTQ crowd even more anti-LGBTQ, and I think that’s the real goal. The more vocal the anti-LGBTQ people are the more power the liberals say they need – and receive. Because if they don’t, then they just turn around and say that Red Hat and all these other projects are anti-LGBTQ too because they refuse to give liberals the tools they say they need.
@whoami That’s why I say they’re the sides of the same culture war coin. Because they need each other to exist.
Calling the US very pro LGBTQ while many states are banning gender affirming care is laughable.
That’s my point! The US loves to hang the rainbow LGBTQ flag in its embassies, like the one in Russia. That’s why I said they use the issue as a tool to advance imperialism, much like the liberals use the Code of Conduct to extend control.
Both can be true, this isn’t an either or comrade.
Not sure that’s really relevant, the US government could very well deal with situations like this if they wanted to, it’s just that they don’t want to because they are not pro LGBTQ as a whole
It’s very important to point this out too, because the idea that global south countries should be attacked for being queerphobic doesn’t actually exist because the US supports queer people, it’s just using pinkwashing as another way manufacture consent for imperialism among another demographic, people who pinkwash things like this are not actually supporting queer rights themselves when they do so (many people and organizations who do so are in fact actively queerphobic)
Yes that makes senses. Thanks for clarifying.
I read your whole comment, but to be honest, I’m not really sure where to begin with this, because it doesn’t seem like you actually understand the situation and are making weird assumptions based on that misunderstanding
Hyprland isn’t the only window manager, there are others, it’s not like it is an essential part of Linux everyone must use.
I am really hoping you simply haven’t read into the context of this, because in case you’re not aware, this is not about hyprland the software at all or people contributing to it, this is about its main developer contributing to freedesktop.org projects such as wlroots (a Wayland compositor framework used by multiple projects including hyprland)
enforcing basic code of conduct rules
That they wrote themselves and want to apply everywhere. Obviously I’m not for insulting people because of sexual preferences, ethnicity, etc. but we don’t need liberals with a “Code of Conduct” to “protect” people. If a person doesn’t like a community, they don’t have to join it.
As I mentioned, this isn’t about other people joining hyprland, it’s about freedesktop.org, one of the most important organizations in the Linux ecosystem because it’s responsible for many foundational components. Codes of Conduct (along with enforcement of those) are an essential safety tool in these kinds of community, as you simply can’t tolerate Nazis and their ilk in a community like this without them forcing out all of the people who would be targeted by someone like that, who do exist in this community (the person enforcing the CoC in this instance being one of them)
The creator of Hyprland obviously isn’t bothered by having these alt-right/Nazi types in the community and hasn’t been willing to remove them. These liberals certainly won’t make him change his mind …
This doesn’t matter, because it’s not about hyprland, that guy can fuck off to his Nazi cave as far as I’m concerned, we aren’t trying to change hyprland. This is about this person trying to make himself at home in an organization full of the kind of people he targets, who will be under attack if someone like him is allowed this leeway. Those people are already part of this community and need to be kept safe, would you rather they be forced out?
US and NATO are also very pro-LGBTQ, does that mean we need to side with them against African and SEA countries who don’t have a good LGBTQ track record?
To be honest, I find this to be an extremely bad faith interpretation of my comment, and makes it sound like you didn’t even read what I wrote. Again, this is not about liberals using the aesthetics of “queer rights” to manufacture consent to attack the global south, this is a community full of queer people banning an outright Nazi because he is a threat to them. This isn’t about creating the image that the community is supposedly safe for queer people when it’s not, it’s about ensuring the safety of the queer people who are already here and contributing in major ways.
I have to be clear here, your comment is not some principled stand against imperialism, it is very close to being a defense for outright Nazis just because the people they’re targeting for being vulnerable minorities happen to be liberals (you know, like most people in the west), and I really hope that this is just because you have some kind of misunderstanding of what’s actually going on in this situation.
Person is awfull. But I dont understand, why someone would stop using this software cause of that.
well it’s up to each individual to decide if they want to use that software or not
That wasn’t my point, whether someone should use it or not. It was more that I don’t understand a decision to reject this software for this reason. There is no question that this person is reactionary.
Personally, I don’t want to support a project, whether as a user or some sort of contributor, if such a project is ran by a dangerous person whose actions are harmful and threaten the safety of trans people (for example). Similar to the event of PolyMC’s hostile takeover by a reactionary, I worry about my safety of using a program if it is ran by someone with malicious perspectives and ideas.
In my opinion, the community has an obligation to condemn reactionaries within their community and by all means protect all of their members, through any means necessary. If reactionaries are given multiple chances to redeem themselves and still reject the demands of the community, they deserve to be removed by the community. The community shall fill the void of any valuable lost products created by reactionary individuals if necessary.
I wouldn’t want to support such a project with donations or by working on the program code. I couldn’t participate in such an environment. I just don’t see any connection between the finished program and the reactionary attitude of the project owner that it might pose a threat to the safety of certain people.
The issue with the community is one thing and how it should be dealt with, i.e. through exclusion etc. - But apparently there are people who wanted to use this software because it’s good, but now don’t because of that. So they’re hoping for a fork or that someone will take it over quickly. That still doesn’t make sense to me. If someone does feel uncomfortable using it, OK. But apart from that, I don’t see any concrete effects on anything if you continue to use this software. Nor how the use itself supports the project or poses a threat to anyone.
For my part, I have no problem using software that was or is developed by someone who is reactionary. If the reactionary thinking is not reflected in the code (how also?), it is no different to me than importing the different dependencies in my own code, where I don’t even know if the persons which developed it are not reactionary after all. It is one thing how to react to such folks but thats not what I am talking about
But I am happy to learn and I could also be totaly wrong with my point.
To be honest, I may not have the best answer for this. One thing to consider is that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and that boycotting products, companies, and individuals is not going to solve the problem of capitalism and its symptoms. We have to do what we can to survive. I am not going to condemn people who still want to use Hyprland. In a socialist society, I believe my earlier statement would be applicable. However, I would consider the open source community as antagonistic to the capitalist system, and it is a part of our society that is need of rooting out its reactionary elements where possible and most effective. Just as a party needs to have its members accountable for their reactionary actions, the open source community must collectively do likewise. I believe FDO made the appropriate choice of removing this individual from their community. I believe the Hyprland project may likely suffer through this alone as the dev cannot contribute to the important projects Hyprland depends on. People using Hyprland don’t need to immediately abandon it for now, but I suspect a fork of Hyprland with a better team may be necessary at some point in the future depending on if and how the original project devolves.
PolyMC’s hostile takeover lead to the fork of Prism Launcher, which has become the surviving project as the majority of devs were kicked out and moved to the new project. In the case of Hyprland, a protest fork would require a separate team dedicated to the project, which of course would be less certain to succeed, but may be feasible as it isn’t a large project such as the Linux kernel.
I believe efforts to such a fork would be beneficial, but resolving these issues with forks to isolate from reactionary devs will not actually solve the actual source of the problem, which is the far-right propaganda, media, culture, etc. enabled and enforced by capitalism. So yes, exclusion of reactionaries is a band-aid solution (sometimes more harmful than helpful in some cases), and people should use the tools that help them survive in this capitalist society. I just personally like to boycott some of the most abusive and dangerous companies and individuals when I can, and I believe we should condemn reactionaries for dangerous and bigoted behavior (and have them face the consequences of their actions) as it important for unifying the working class and protecting minorities. We need to root out racism, sexism, etc. as it inhibits the working class from working together and realizing their true enemy.
Every option other than banning Vaxry has been exhausted over the past year and a half. I personally spent several weeks following my last blog post on the matter discussing Vaxry’s behavior in confidence and helping him understand how to improve, and at my suggestion he joined a private community of positive male role models to discuss these issues in a private and empathetic space. After a few weeks of these private discussions, the last thing he said to me was “I do believe there could be arguments to sway my opinion towards genocide”.
Wow, the Hyprland dev is a total POS. Glad I use sway (at least I hope there’s not fascists running it, too). I eventually want to migrate to river once I figure out how to extend it to my needs (probably need to learn Zig first, which is on my bucket list), but I really like sway’s tiling capabilities now.
Hopefully Hyprland is forked with a better dev/team
Honestly, I wish there was an alternative to Wayland, given the number of toxic devs in that sphere and the drama that occurs over the most basic features that never get implemented for many years because the team wants to essentially dictate how people should run their computers, while ignoring all of the special use cases, such as multi-window layouts for scientific programs.
Though it’s not just Wayland, the open source community in general can be extremely toxic.
“I do believe there could be arguments to sway my opinion towards genocide”.
Can someone explain this part to me. Please.
There is a disclaimer if you missed it:
Yes, this is taken out of context. But, if you raise this objection, I struggle to imagine in what context you think this statement can be read sympathetically.
Regardless of what statement this sentence (said from the Hyprland dev) comes from, this is still unhinged and essentially Nazi/fascist-sympathetic. I haven’t seen further context to conversation myself, but I still say the dev is deplorable.
Honestly, I wish there was an alternative to Wayland
I’ve been happily using the alternative for more than 25 years so far
Edit: Choosing to stan Poettering is a weird choice. You know he works for microsoft, right? The gigantic fascist software monopoly place that has been openly destroying human rights for decades, collaborates with the CIA/NSA/FBI and US state as a mass surveillance apparatus. He’s also always been an arrogant child, picking fights with principled engineers and working against the efforts of unix philosophy to insert awful windowisms into our ecosystem. Poettering is a disease on FOSS and his legacy is using RedHat/IBM to insert systemd (which is basically CIA bloatware with a massive pid-zero attack surface) into Linux will never be forgiven.
I did not know much, if anything, about Poettering. That’s good to know. My goal is to use OpenRC with s6, and I like how the s6 dev wants to create an init system to compete against systemd. I don’t like systemd for its bloat and flawed design, and some recent features of systemd have been sus.
I don’t pay much attention to dev manchildren, so forgive me if I am not aware of their histories.
Apologies if my Poettering rant was worded too strongly. I guess I just mean that there are very good reasons people dislike him so much. He’s earned far less animosity than he deserves imo.
s6 is cool, though I’ve not played around with it too much. I’ve mostly stuck with runit on my Linux systems since it’s simple, fast and I’m happy with it. You might take a look at dinit, too, if you haven’t already. It’s still maturing, but dinit is probably the most syntactically similar to systemd. Both are very fast.
Sucks, hyprland seems like a cool project. Oh well, guess I’ll stay satisfied on Sway.
sway? I’m still on X11 lmao
Honestly as a Linux normie I just switched from GNOME (X11) to GNOME (Wayland) to Plasma (Wayland)
It’s cool, but holy, I’m considering making the switch to sway or something after this one
r/linux is a cesspool
To be fair, there was another thread discussing the same topic, and many people were calling out the vaxry, and pointing out the amount of brigading going on. Once any topic like this is brought up, the worst type of people come out…
Oh wow, that thread wasn’t around last time I checked (when I made my post in the weekly megathread), it really does go to show how the other thread is just entirely brigading when there’s a clear community consensus in the thread you mentioned of how fucked up it all is
Honestly, I think /r/linux is somehow less of a cesspool than the Lemmy equivalent most of the time lol, though at least it so far hasn’t had this kind of brigading issue
It’s still a cesspool. They were mad about the RMS fiasco, but for the wrong reasons. A lot of reddit tech subs were on his side during that.
I remember that…it’s a shame people couldn’t just accept RMS isn’t perfect. Always looking for any reason to defend him
It IS on reddit.
This is sad. I like hyprland and it’s currently my daily driver. I tend to stay out of communities other than this one so I didn’t know Vaxry was a terrible person.
yeah, hopefully things change
