This is cool in theory, but kind of annoying if you are trying to modify the roll with something like Favored by the Gods from Divine Soul Sorcerer that specifically can activate if you fail the roll.
You add an additional 2d4 to your attack/save that fails.
I’m not sure if ANY other dice modifications work after knowing failure, but I know this one does. I know when I play divine souls I always like to save it for those random Int/Wis saves that’ll get ya.
It might work like how my table handles the shield spell but in reverse. For example…
DM rolls attack against Pat’s Tiefling Wizard named Tim.
DM: I am rolling the goblin’s attack. Pat, what’s Tim’s AC?
Pat: 15.
DM rolls a 16. Does not tell anyone.
DM: Okay, the goblin hits you. I know you have at least one possible reaction, what does Tim do?
Pat: Tim casts shield! His AC is now 20.
DM: The attack misses!
DM then describes to the Party how the goblin arrow slings towards Tim, stopping only when it gets stuck in a last second distortion of abjuration magics.
I really don’t like this, since it makes shield a blind shot, for the chance of making an attack miss. Wich is not a big deal for characters with high AC (since +5 is enough to make almost all attacks, that would otherwise hit, miss instead), but for characters with low AC it is. So the nerf doesn’t really work well.
Besides: It makes it even harder to do something I really like: figure out things about the monster by ,reading" their roles and thus adapting my characters strategy.
And lastly it makes the PCs feel… babysitted, since the DM does not seem to trust them and just plays the whole thing for them. (Why even bother rolling any check yourself if the DM can just do it all the time?)
…there are many feature + ability mechanics contingent upon open rolls…the game’s designed around that assumption: rolls are open, modifiers can be kept secret as the DM determines success or failure…
…if DMs want to roll secret checks for events beyond characters’ perception, the proper approach is to invert the roll and do a passive check instead…
Only problem I can see with that is, that passive scores take away from the randomness attributed to DnD but I generally agree with you. I also don’t like rolling checks for my players.
…nonono, passive scores shouldn’t be automatic success or failure: you invert the roll…
…say you want to know whether a party detects traps as they prowl through the dungeon: you subtract twelve from the trap DC, use that as its modifier, and add it to a secret D20 roll which you compare with everyone’s passive perception to determine whether the trap successfully avoids detection…
…as long as you properly account for all applicable modifiers, you can do the same thing for any secret ability check or saving throw, or for a single roll to circumvent the party dogpiling a group check…
…subtracting twelve maintains the same odds with ties ‘succeeding’ for the rolling adversary; some DMs instead subtract eleven and flip ties for the PC to always win, which is mathematically identical, but then you have to keep track of flipping tie-resolution back-and-forth depending upon who’s rolling…
Perception +6, Trap DC 14 = Passive Perception 16, Trap +2
(both have the same 65% chance of detection, 35% chance of staying hidden)
…it becomes a pretty trivial exercise to invert any roll after you’ve done it once or twice…
This is cool in theory, but kind of annoying if you are trying to modify the roll with something like Favored by the Gods from Divine Soul Sorcerer that specifically can activate if you fail the roll.
You add an additional 2d4 to your attack/save that fails.
I’m not sure if ANY other dice modifications work after knowing failure, but I know this one does. I know when I play divine souls I always like to save it for those random Int/Wis saves that’ll get ya.
It might work like how my table handles the shield spell but in reverse. For example…
DM rolls attack against Pat’s Tiefling Wizard named Tim.
DM: I am rolling the goblin’s attack. Pat, what’s Tim’s AC?
Pat: 15.
DM rolls a 16. Does not tell anyone.
DM: Okay, the goblin hits you. I know you have at least one possible reaction, what does Tim do?
Pat: Tim casts shield! His AC is now 20.
DM: The attack misses!
DM then describes to the Party how the goblin arrow slings towards Tim, stopping only when it gets stuck in a last second distortion of abjuration magics.
I really don’t like this, since it makes shield a blind shot, for the chance of making an attack miss. Wich is not a big deal for characters with high AC (since +5 is enough to make almost all attacks, that would otherwise hit, miss instead), but for characters with low AC it is. So the nerf doesn’t really work well.
Besides: It makes it even harder to do something I really like: figure out things about the monster by ,reading" their roles and thus adapting my characters strategy.
And lastly it makes the PCs feel… babysitted, since the DM does not seem to trust them and just plays the whole thing for them. (Why even bother rolling any check yourself if the DM can just do it all the time?)
…there are many feature + ability mechanics contingent upon open rolls…the game’s designed around that assumption: rolls are open, modifiers can be kept secret as the DM determines success or failure…
…if DMs want to roll secret checks for events beyond characters’ perception, the proper approach is to invert the roll and do a passive check instead…
Only problem I can see with that is, that passive scores take away from the randomness attributed to DnD but I generally agree with you. I also don’t like rolling checks for my players.
…nonono, passive scores shouldn’t be automatic success or failure: you invert the roll…
…say you want to know whether a party detects traps as they prowl through the dungeon: you subtract twelve from the trap DC, use that as its modifier, and add it to a secret D20 roll which you compare with everyone’s passive perception to determine whether the trap successfully avoids detection…
…as long as you properly account for all applicable modifiers, you can do the same thing for any secret ability check or saving throw, or for a single roll to circumvent the party dogpiling a group check…
Hm. That could work. But it would be quite tedious.
Also: why 12 and not 8? Doesn’t a DC calculate 8+prof+ability?
…subtracting twelve maintains the same odds with ties ‘succeeding’ for the rolling adversary; some DMs instead subtract eleven and flip ties for the PC to always win, which is mathematically identical, but then you have to keep track of flipping tie-resolution back-and-forth depending upon who’s rolling…
Perception +6, Trap DC 14 = Passive Perception 16, Trap +2
(both have the same 65% chance of detection, 35% chance of staying hidden)
…it becomes a pretty trivial exercise to invert any roll after you’ve done it once or twice…
i mean, can’t the DM just tell you it failed and apply that?
Nah. The whole point of the bottle method is so the player doesn’t know if it failed or succeeded.