https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/general-motors/2023/11/28/gm-considers-bringing-back-hybrid-options-for-north-american-market/71721267007/

“GM is currently assessing potential future investment,” GM spokesperson George Svigos said in a statement, adding: “No final decision has been made. GM is committed to an all-EV future globally. On that pathway, we continue to study consumer preferences and powertrain options, to ensure we best respond to customer demand and comply with an uncertain, complex and increasingly stringent regulatory landscape for 2027 and beyond.”

  • lee1026@alien.topB
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    1 year ago

    PHEVs with a 50mi all electric range without an atrocious power dropoff are the sweet spot right now.

    Are they? Battery costs keep falling. When you go from a Model 3 to a Volt, you save on batteries but you gotta pay for an engine, transmission, fuel tank, and a bunch of other things.

    At current prices ($120 per kwh), a Model 3 battery is maybe $6000-7000. A Volt battery is probably at least $1000-$2000, since you need the full power from it, if not the full capacity. And then you gotta pay for the engine, transmission, catalytic converter, and all of that stuff. It is a painful way to save $4-5k.

    You can kinda tell that Toyota is having regrets about the way that they do things, because all of the primes are being made in collectible quantities despite ample demand.

    • Alternative_Program@alien.topB
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      1 year ago

      The pack level prices are much higher than $120/kWh. No one is offering replacements that cheap. Certainly not Tesla.

      You also don’t need a traditional transmission in many PHEVs. The Volt included. You’re dramatically overestimating the cost of the ICE specific components, and underestimating the cost of batteries. BEVs are the more expensive option for a reason.

    • Lorax91@alien.topB
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      1 year ago

      At current prices ($120 per kwh), a Model 3 battery is maybe $6000-7000.

      $9840 for the 82 kWh Model 3 battery using your price figure, versus $2160 for an 18 kWh PHEV battery. Which gives the Model 3 ~250 miles of highway range in mild weather, compared to more than double that for an efficient PHEV like the Rav4 Prime. So you’d need a $20k battery to match the range of the R4P, if a battery like that was small enough to be practical.

      But, you say, you don’t need 500+ miles of range most days. That’s right, most days most people only need 40-50 miles of driving range…like a decent PHEV.

      • lee1026@alien.topB
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        11 months ago

        PHEVs batteries are way more expensive than they look, because they still need to deliver power. You might only need 1/5th of the range of a Model 3, but you still need all of the power of a Model 3 (or you can cheap out, I guess, but nobody wants anemic cars with a 0-60 time of “well, eventually, maybe, in favorable conditions”).

        So we are generally talking more expensive chemistries and more expensive designs.

        • Lorax91@alien.topB
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          11 months ago

          you still need all of the power of a Model 3 or you can cheap out, I guess, but nobody wants anemic cars with a 0-60 time of “well, eventually, maybe, in favorable conditions”.

          I have a PHEV with a weak 0-60 time in electric mode, but that turns out to rarely be an issue. In city traffic it’s fine, because the instant torque is better than many gas cars. And on the rare occasions when I need to get on the freeway on a short on-ramp, the gas engine can kick in to take care of that. Not the same as driving a fully electric vehicle, but it fits my driving style. Most people don’t need supercar acceleration for their daily driving needs.

          The old school PHEV designs like the Volt with their 150 hp electric motors are just too underpowered in 2023

          A problem with the Volt is that it maxed out at 149 hp, because it wasn’t designed to combine gas and electric power sources to drive the wheels. The Rav4 Prime PHEV has 302 combined hp, and the Audi PHEV I’m driving has 362 hp.

          In terms of overall production cost, PHEVs are in an odd spot between traditional hybrids and fully electric vehicles. They’ll probably fade away soon because of this, but for some use cases they still have a place for now.

      • brucecaboose@alien.topB
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        11 months ago

        82kwh is 350+ miles of range, not 250. Your math is off by a shit ton. 250 is the 57kwh battery.