The Bolt lost GM almost 10k on every unit sold when they discontinued it. I don’t know how it balanced out for GM in terms of their ability to meet CARB regulations, but in itself it was not a viable product.
Lucid and Rivian also bleed money, it’s the nature with any new technology. GM certainly lost money, but they’re absolutely leapfrogging ford in EV nowadays.
Just feel like not investing as much in EVs is going to bite them back in the future
The big issue is that the BEV is not new. It’s older than the ICEV. It’s just never worked or succeeded because no matter how you slice it batteries suck. They’ve always sucked, they still suck, and they always will suck. That’s just the nature of the beast because their limitations are rooted in the laws of physics and those laws cannot be broken.
Not in the ways that matter to consumers. Consumers don’t care about drivetrain efficiency or stuff like that. They care about ease of use, range, and time to get back on the road when running low on stored energy. BEVs at best match and usually do worse on those things.
You think consumers love spending $60 every week at the pump, and being late for their morning meeting because they forgot to do so the previous evening? You think they enjoy having to wait for heat to finally appear on a cold morning? You think they enjoy oil changes and 30k service intervals and when their timing belt craps out and they bend a valve? And don’t even get me started on the externalities consumers don’t pay for. If they had to absorb those costs, imagine just how much less they’d like it!
I am convinced the majority of people don’t “like” it, but rather tolerate it because it’s all they’ve known, and change is scary. They’ll come around.
If I’m Ford, I know that I can wait out the tech curve of EV development over the next five years, and then buy a smaller company for their tech and scale it - all for less than 12 Billion. In 2022, Rimac’s valuation was $2B according to their fundraise, and their tech is miles ahead of Ford’s. Now picture a company much smaller than Rimac.
Rivian was worth 32B for most of 2022, 16B currently. Ford is worth 41B currently. So buying Rivian would be pretty hard to do, given the usual market premium you need to offer.
every time I see these kind of numbers I am completely befuddled. Ford vs. Rivian and even the current “worth” is not even 3x. potential is soooo overrated to me, but who I am to judge, in the end I have no clue.
Growth is very attractive because rarely do stagnant companies become growth stocks and plenty of growth stocks keep growing and growing and growing. I thought Amazon would stop being “overpriced” for like 15 years now. Nope. Always trades at a generous multiple and (generally) keeps growing.
I’m personally not a huge fan of rivian as a stock but in general this market loves to give growth stocks a massive premium.
And it’s okay for them to lose money because Wall Street treats them like startups. If Ford or GM began losing money then shareholder would dump them immediately, because the investor that holds their stock does so expecting immediate quarterly dividends, not maybe-profit in 5 years.
So what you’re saying is ford management is ok kicking the can down the road instead of making difficult choices to ensure the future of the company. Isn’t that how ceos justify making so much more money than workers?
These companies are taking the easy way out by not making investments for the future. It’s inevitable the company will either need to make EVs profitably or cease to exist.
No, what I’m saying is Ford shareholders are okay with that, and part of the CEO’s job is making them happy alongside their workers. And if you look at the largest shareholders of Ford, they’re mostly wealth management companies who want those quarterly yields so the people who set up retirement/investment funds with them see returns.
The Bolt lost GM almost 10k on every unit sold when they discontinued it. I don’t know how it balanced out for GM in terms of their ability to meet CARB regulations, but in itself it was not a viable product.
Lucid and Rivian also bleed money, it’s the nature with any new technology. GM certainly lost money, but they’re absolutely leapfrogging ford in EV nowadays.
Just feel like not investing as much in EVs is going to bite them back in the future
The big issue is that the BEV is not new. It’s older than the ICEV. It’s just never worked or succeeded because no matter how you slice it batteries suck. They’ve always sucked, they still suck, and they always will suck. That’s just the nature of the beast because their limitations are rooted in the laws of physics and those laws cannot be broken.
ICE sucks more, yet still succeeded. Nothing has to be perfect to be viable.
Not in the ways that matter to consumers. Consumers don’t care about drivetrain efficiency or stuff like that. They care about ease of use, range, and time to get back on the road when running low on stored energy. BEVs at best match and usually do worse on those things.
You think consumers love spending $60 every week at the pump, and being late for their morning meeting because they forgot to do so the previous evening? You think they enjoy having to wait for heat to finally appear on a cold morning? You think they enjoy oil changes and 30k service intervals and when their timing belt craps out and they bend a valve? And don’t even get me started on the externalities consumers don’t pay for. If they had to absorb those costs, imagine just how much less they’d like it!
I am convinced the majority of people don’t “like” it, but rather tolerate it because it’s all they’ve known, and change is scary. They’ll come around.
If I’m Ford, I know that I can wait out the tech curve of EV development over the next five years, and then buy a smaller company for their tech and scale it - all for less than 12 Billion. In 2022, Rimac’s valuation was $2B according to their fundraise, and their tech is miles ahead of Ford’s. Now picture a company much smaller than Rimac.
Rivian was worth 32B for most of 2022, 16B currently. Ford is worth 41B currently. So buying Rivian would be pretty hard to do, given the usual market premium you need to offer.
every time I see these kind of numbers I am completely befuddled. Ford vs. Rivian and even the current “worth” is not even 3x. potential is soooo overrated to me, but who I am to judge, in the end I have no clue.
Growth is very attractive because rarely do stagnant companies become growth stocks and plenty of growth stocks keep growing and growing and growing. I thought Amazon would stop being “overpriced” for like 15 years now. Nope. Always trades at a generous multiple and (generally) keeps growing.
I’m personally not a huge fan of rivian as a stock but in general this market loves to give growth stocks a massive premium.
Debt. Ford has $95B in long term debt.
And it’s okay for them to lose money because Wall Street treats them like startups. If Ford or GM began losing money then shareholder would dump them immediately, because the investor that holds their stock does so expecting immediate quarterly dividends, not maybe-profit in 5 years.
So what you’re saying is ford management is ok kicking the can down the road instead of making difficult choices to ensure the future of the company. Isn’t that how ceos justify making so much more money than workers?
These companies are taking the easy way out by not making investments for the future. It’s inevitable the company will either need to make EVs profitably or cease to exist.
No, what I’m saying is Ford shareholders are okay with that, and part of the CEO’s job is making them happy alongside their workers. And if you look at the largest shareholders of Ford, they’re mostly wealth management companies who want those quarterly yields so the people who set up retirement/investment funds with them see returns.